#25 Conversation: Written vs. Spoken Cantonese (粵語)
Don's Snow's Cantonese as Written Language
Vocabulary
1. 接觸 zip3 zuk1 (V/N) to contact; contact2. 相差 soeng1 caa1 (ADJ/V) (be) different
3. 源於 jyun4 jyu1 (V) to originate/stem from
4. 制度 zai3 dou6 (N) system
5. 目標 muk6 biu1 (N) goal, target
6. 目的 muk6 dik1 (N) purpose
7. 應付 jing3 fu6 (V) to deal with
8. 畢業 bat1 jip6 (N/V) graduation; to graduate
9. 正式 zing3 sik1 (ADJ) formal
10. 場合 coeng4 hap6 (N) occasion
11. 所謂 so3 wai6 (ADV) so-called
12. 地位 dei6 wai6 (N) status
13. 雙層 soeng1 cang4 (ADJ) two-layered
14. 層次 cang4 ci3 (N) level
15. 等級 dang2 kap1 (N) class, grade
16. 規範性 kwai1 faan6 sing3 (N) normalization, standardization
17. 克服 hak1 fuk6 (V) to overcome
18. 白話 baak6 waa2 (N) vernacular (language)
19. 現代 jin6 doi6 (ADJ) contemporary, modern
20. 逼 bik1 (V) to force
21. 討論 tou2 leon6 (V/N) to discuss; discussion
22. 掌握 zoeng2 ngaak1 (V/N) to grasp, to master; grasp, mastery
23. 轉換 zyun3 wun6 (V/N) to convert; conversion
24. 學期 hok6 kei4 (N) school semester/term
25. 詞彙 ci4 wui6 (N) vocabulary
26. 幼稚園 jau3 zi6 jyun2 (N) kindergarten
27. 語體 jyu5 tai2 (N) language style, register
28. 代溝 doi6 kau1 (N) generation gap
29. 彈性 daan6 sing3 (N) flexibility
30. 想象力 soeng2 zoeng6 lik6 (N) imagination
31. 年代 nin4 doi6 (N) era, generation
32. 年紀 nin4 gei2 (N) age
33. 態度 taai3 dou6 (N) attitude
34. 傳媒 cyun4 mui4 (N) mass media
35. 順眼 seon6 ngaan5 (N) easy on / pleasing to the eye
36. 趨勢 ceoi1 sai3 (N) trend
37. 權威 kyun4 wai1 (N) authority
38. 機構 gei1 kau3 (N) institution
39. 直情 zik6 cing4 (ADV) outright, purely
40. 政府 zing3 fu2 (N) government
41. 官方 gun1 fong1 (ADJ) official
42. 部門 bou6 mun4 (N) bureau, department
43. 話事 waa6 si6 (VO) to be in charge
44. 學者 hok6 ze2 (N) scholar
45. 尊重 zyun1 zung6 (V/N) to respect; respect
46. 控制 hung3 zai3 (V/N) to control; control
47. 推動 teoi1 dung6 (V/N) to bolster, to promote; promotion, propagation
48. 唯一 wai4 jat1 (ADJ) the only
49. 客觀 haak3 gun1 (ADJ) objective
50. 固定 gu3 ding6 (ADJ) fixed
51. 亂咁 lyun6 gam3 (ADV) haphazardly, randomly
52. 創作 cong3 zok3 (V/N) to create; creation
53. 音標 jam1 biu1 (N) phonetic symbol
54. 格式 gaak3 sik1 (N) format
55. 爭拗 zang1 ngaau3 (N/V) argument; to argue
56. 迫切 bik1 cit3 (ADJ) urgent
57. 百花齊放 baak3 faa1 cai4 fong3 (EXP) freedom of expression (lit. a hundred flowers bloom)
58. 輸入法 syu1 jap6 faat3 (N) input method
59. 不嬲 bat1 nau1 (ADV) always, the whole time
60. 演變 jin2 bin3 (N/V) evolution; to evolve
61. 行先 haang4 sin1 (V) to take priority (lit. to go first)
62. 共識 gung6 sik1 (N) consensus
63. 發展 faat 1 zin2 (V/N) to develop; development
64. 溝通 kau1 tung1 (V/N) to communicate; communication
65. 發短信 faat3 dyun2 seon3 (VO) to send text message
66. 方向 fong1 hoeng3 (N) direction
ADJ - Adjective
ADV - Adverb
EXP - Expression
N - Noun
V - Verb
VO - Verb object
Cameron: Raymond，我自己開始學廣東話嗰陣時，發現廣東話嘅一個就比較特別嘅方面係你寫嘅嘢同你講嘅嘢經常唔一樣。我意思就係，如果你睇，就小說裏, 會睇嗰個“的”，唔係“嘅”，或者會睇“他”，唔係“佢”。就有好多例子。噉，我就想問你，作爲一個母語者，你讀書嗰陣時點講呢個問題、點講呢個，所謂嘅 “diglossia”？
(When I first started studying Cantonese, I found that a rather special aspect of the language is that what you say and what you write are often different. What I mean is that, if you look, like in a novel, you will see “dik1” instead of “ge3,” or you’ll see “taa1” instead “keoi5…” There are plenty of examples. I’m curious, as someone whose first language is Cantonese, back when you were in school, how did you talk about this issue of “diglossia?”)
Raymond: 嗯，我覺得呢個，即係我哋喺讀書所接觸1嘅語言，同我哋平時日常生活口語講嗰個語言呢，即係相差2比較大呢。講返我自己嘅個人嘅學習經驗呢，即係喺香港受教育啦，嗰個嘅背景呀、環境係比較唔一樣嘅。因爲我覺得呢個語言嗰個差別係源於3我哋嗰個教育個制度4。我哋喺學校裏面學嗰個語言、我哋個目標5、同埋我哋嘅目的6，係爲咗即係我哋要應付7我哋嘅考試、我哋嘅畢業8。
(Well, I think there is a pretty big difference between the language we encounter in an educational setting and the language we use in our everyday lives. In terms of my own experience as a student who received a Hong Kong education, with that background, the environments were quite different. I think it has to do with the educational system. For the language we used in school, our objective and goal were to handle tests so that we could graduate.)
同埋呢，喺學校裏面呢，即係話俾我哋聽，你係受過教育嘅，噉呢你要，你要識字，噉同埋你用嗰個語言呢係配合你工作同埋喺啲比較正式9嘅場合10裏面用嘅語言呢。噉所以嗰個語言係比較所謂11標準、比較正式。噉就同我哋日常、平時生活你溝通用嗰個口語呢，係有啲唔一樣嘅，噉其實呢個係有啲人爲嗰個地位12嘅差別呀。噉我諗即係你，你自己亦都有學即係中文呀、學語言學啦，都有聽過，其實呢個現象呢，就係喺英文呢，其實都係源於呢個希臘文嘅字，叫 “diglossia” 係咪？
(Also, in school, they would tell you you were educated, so you needed to be able to read, and the language you used needed to match what you might use at work or in a more formal setting. So the standard of language was rather formal. Meanwhile, the language we used in daily life for communicating was a bit different, creating what might be seen as a status difference between people. I think that you, having studied both Chinese and linguistics, you’ve heard of the phenomenon known in English—it has a Greek root—as “diglossia,” right?)
噉呢如果譯、翻譯出嚟就叫一個“雙層13”嘅語言。即係話呢，一個好，一個大嘅語言，成個語言嗰個系統裏面呢，其實仲可以分層次14嘅，分等級15嘅。噉所以我哋有陣時喺學校學嗰個係所謂嘅比較“高級”嘅語言。噉同我哋平時日常生活我哋講嘢，唔需要諗咁多啦，都唔使擔心點樣寫或者記錄呢，所以個規範性16呢就低啲。不過我又想聽吓 Cameron 你，噉你自己呢，你點樣克服17即係口語同埋書面語嗰個差別呀？
(If you translate it, it means a “double-layered” language. It means that within one larger language, or within the system of a language, it is actually split into a hierarchy. So what we learned in school was the “high-level” language, and what we used in everyday life, because we didn’t have to think too much about how to write or record it, it was less standardized. But I am curious, Cameron, how have you dealt with this difference between spoken and written language [in Cantonese]?)
Cameron: 因爲我最開始學嘅係普通話，噉普通話雖然都有呢個書面語同口語之間嘅分別，但係佢語法上面都算係白話18，就係嗰個比較就係現代19嘅中文。所以你學嘅時候，你可能會話：“呢啲詞語就係寫嘅時候用嘅。”但係嗰個語法就同你講嘅係差唔多嘅。但係你，就係廣東話同正式中文好似都有啲語法上嘅差別。譬如話“俾本書你”，寫嘅時候係“給你這本書”。所以呢啲嘢我覺得我自己就會用普通話諗嘅。但係呢個就係因爲我係最開始讀中文嘅時候都係用普通話讀嘅。但係呢排發現，如果我就係逼20自己用廣東話唸書即係另一種感受呀。但係如果有個學生係用廣東話開始學寫嘅中文嘅，你點討論21呢個問題呀，就點教佢呀？
(Because I first learned Mandarin [before Cantonese] even though there are still differences between written and spoken language in Mandarin, the grammar is largely vernacularized, and it comes across as relatively contemporary Chinese. When learning [Mandarin], you might say, “This vocabulary is used more in writing,” but the grammar and way you speak are by and large the same. However, there are grammatical differences between Cantonese and formal written Chinese, like when you say, “[literally] give this book you”, when you write it, it’s, “give you this book” [Note also the different verbs, demonstratives, etc.] So I often think about these things [written Chinese] using Mandarin. But of course, that’s because I started with Mandarin. Lately I have found that if I force myself to read using Cantonese, it gives me a different feeling. But if a student is first using Cantonese to learn written Chinese, how do you talk about this issue? How do you teach it?)
Raymond: 如果啲學生佢哋學廣東話，佢哋嘅目標係要識得睇中文呢，噉呢個都係同一時間佢哋要去掌握22個技巧。即係我睇住呢啲字呢，我要識得點樣轉換23嘅。噉但係呢，其實呢啲字又唔係真係咁多咁多。因爲譬如我睇返我哋而家喺大學裏面教嗰個粵語嘅課程啦，我哋大概一個學期24呢，一至兩個學期啦，即係都唔使一年嘅時間呢，即係已經包括咗大部分基本嘅呢啲嘅常用嘅字，係口語同埋書面比較大嘅分別，啱啱講到嗰啲“的”變成“嘅”呀，譬如“你哋”、“我哋”，“你們”、“我們”變成“你哋”、“我哋”呀，嗰啲即係基本嘅轉換呢，噉都唔需要花好多好多時間，即係起碼你要明白咗呢啲基本嘅轉換。
(If students are studying Cantonese and their goal is to be able to read written Chinese, then those are skills that they need to master at the same time. What I mean is that when looking at a character, I need to know how to swap it [E.g. seeing 的 and knowing it equates with 嘅 in colloquial Cantonese]. Of course, there aren’t too many of these characters [that swap]. For instance, within a semester or two of college-level Cantonese, about a year, we cover most of the basic characters that are regularly used, the ones that make up a large proportion of the colloquial and written words that “change,” like with nei5 dei5, ngo5 dei5, nei5 mun4 and ngo5 mun4 become nei5 dei5 and ngo5 dei5, those are the most basic changes. You don’t need to spend too much time on them, you just need to get the basics of switching).
噉當然啦，你如果你要睇啲比較高級啲嘅，你要識睇報紙、識睇小說嘅話，當然呢個詞彙25要大啲，噉你要掌握嘅係多啲。但係如果你話一般日常生活要應付嘅話呢其實唔係真係咁多囉。噉我哋都係，譬如我哋以前幼稚園26到小學，去到小學左右嘅年紀，我哋已經基本上睇住嗰啲，我哋可以一個一個字噉讀出嚟。但係你叫我哋講呢，我哋都識得講嘅。即係其實唔係話真係要花咁多咁多時間。
(Of course, if you want to read relatively advanced materials, like a newspaper or novel, you naturally need a bigger vocabulary, so there is more that you will need to master. However, if you’re talking about what you need for handling daily life, then it’s not too much. Like back when we were in kindergarten and elementary school, or at the age of just going to primary school, we could already read basic characters, as in we could read them one at a time. But if you actually asked us to speak them, we knew how to say them. You don’t need to spend too much time on it.)
Cameron: 係呀，係呀。同埋我覺得一個比較有趣嘅方法就係，睇啲 social media 或者啲 Facebook。因爲喺香港，有啲人會用正式中文寫 Facebook posts，都有啲人會用嗰個口語嘅廣東話寫嘅，所以兩個語體27都可以學嘅。但係我覺得可能都係一個代溝28。譬如話，40 歲以上嘅人好似比較鍾意用正式中文係咪？但係我年代嘅朋友就係基本上比較鍾意用口語嘅廣東話。但係另一個問題，問題就係，大家用嘅字可能唔一樣，譬如話“俾”，“俾你”嘅“俾”有幾個寫法係唔係？或者都有啲可以用嗰個英文嘅字母寫嘅。所以啲人佢哋都有自己嘅習慣，所以你都要有多啲彈性29，你睇嘅時候唔係因爲冇咩標準，所以你有時都要用你嘅想象力30。
(Yeah, yeah. And I think that a fairly interesting method [of learning to read Cantonese] is to look at social media or Facebook. In Hong Kong, some people use formal written Chinese to write Facebook posts, and some people write directly in colloquial Cantonese, so you can study both styles. However, I think there might also be a generation gap. For instance, people over 40 are more likely to use formal written Chinese, right? However, friends in my generation are more likely to use colloquial Cantonese. However, one problem is that the characters that people use [to write colloquial Cantonese] might not be the same. For instance, the character for bei2 [to give] can be written many different ways, right? Or there are also some characters that can be written as an English letter [e.g. 啲 appears in some places as “D”]. Everyone has their own habits, so you need to be a bit flexible. When you are reading there is no standard, so sometimes you also have to use your imagination.)
Raymond: 嗯，係呀，你講咗呢點呢，其實亦都，呢個唔同嘅年代31或者年紀32嘅人士對於語言嘅態度33啦。噉其實你都睇住一路轉變，因爲即係一路有年輕嘅人，有新嘢出嚟噉大家對於個語言嗰個用法，或者睇法會有啲唔一樣。噉同埋，當然喇，我哋即係書寫粵語口語呢，我哋比較年輕嘅一代嘅，而家見得多，我哋又用得多，同埋呢而家亦都越嚟越多傳媒34會用呢啲嘅方法。所以大家接觸得多呢，慣咗呢，即係好似等於你睇一樣嘢睇順眼35噉樣呀，睇到習慣咗。噉所以我覺得呢個趨勢36會一路變嘅。噉同埋呢，仲有一樣嘢，就係粵語呢，唔似好多嘅語言呢，係有一個我哋叫做權威37嘅機構38。
(Yes, as you bring up this generational or era shift in attitudes toward language, I’ve actually also seen a change. On the one hand you’ve got young people who, when something new [in a language] comes out, the way they use it or approach it is different. And of course, in terms of written colloquial Cantonese, among the younger generation you can see more of it, we use more of it, and there is more of it being used in media. People come into contact with it more and get more used to it, sort of like when you look at something until it becomes pleasing to the eye, you get accustomed to seeing it. I think this trend will continue to change. Also, Cantonese is different from many languages that have an authoritative organization [that sets standards].)
即係話乜嘢叫做“啱”，乜嘢叫做“唔啱”，乜嘢係標準。譬如我哋知道法文、德文、歐洲有啲語言，佢直情39有即係譬如政府40或者官方41機構話咩係“啱”嘅。就算你講返譬如漢語，中文喺中國噉其實佢哋政府亦都有部門42去… 點講呀，去規範呢啲嘅，咩叫做標準。噉但係粵語廣東話就冇嘅，即係冇一個，一個機構話事嘅，或者一個人去話事43。當然啦可能有啲學者44，可能我哋會尊重45啲聽佢講嘢，噉但係都唔係話一個人去可以控制46晒所有嘢。噉但係可能話唔定將來會變嘅。即係可能會多咗啲，特別係學校啦，因爲學校唔教吖嘛個問題係。
(That is, [deciding] what is “correct,” what is “incorrect,” what sort of standards. For instance, we know that French, German, many European languages, they simply have something like a governmental or official organization that says what is right. Or in terms of Chinese, China has a ministry in the government that oversees… how to say it, they define what is standard. However, Cantonese doesn’t have this, or there is no one organization or person that calls the shots. Of course there are scholars who we respect, listening to what they say, but there is no one person in control of it all. But we can’t say for sure whether that will change in the future. Perhaps there may be multiple, especially with schools, as they don’t teach a standard, that’s the problem.)
學校都唔會去推動47，所以大家又唔覺得有呢個所謂嘅標準嘅需要。噉但係呢，一個例外，我覺得而家唯一48呢，粵語有一樣嘢幫助推動呢，一個有呢一個比較客觀49同埋固定50嘅標準就係我哋嗰個拼音喇，即係粵拼。呢個呢，真係有香港語言學會去推動。噉同埋佢呢樣嘢都唔係亂咁51創作52出嚟嘅。佢係根據語言學、根據國際音標53去定出嚟嘅。噉越嚟越多人用呢，噉呢樣嘢就會開始慢慢變成一個標準。噉起碼發音上邊我知道點樣拼出嚟 ，大家係一樣嘅。
(Schools won’t bolster a standard, so no one thinks that there is a need for a standard. However, one exception, and I think it’s the only exception right now, something that is also helping propogate the language, something that is relatively objective and stable as a standard is the romanization, Jyutping. This is something that the Linguistic Society of Hong Kong is pushing. It’s not something that was created haphazardly; it was formulated according to linguistics and international phonetic standards. More and more people are using it, and it will gradually start to become a standard. At least in terms of pronunciation I know how to write it, and everyone does it the same.)
噉到到點樣寫呢，我覺得就要靠譬如除咗大家要用之外，就要睇吓有冇字典啦，即係大家會查呢個字典，噉大家一齊用呢一個方法。暫時就未有好話，即係所有講廣東話嘅人用同一套嘅格式54或者係字典嘅話呢，暫時大家都係慢慢習慣啦。同埋大家都有啲爭拗55囉，呢一個話應該噉樣寫，一個又話另外一個寫法。噉但係暫時都因爲呢樣嘢又大家又唔覺得唔係最最最迫切56、最重要嘅問題，因爲學校唔教唔考，噉所以就… 呢個問題都唔算好大啦，噉所以而家暫時係百花齊放57嘅現象囉。
(In terms of how it is written everywhere, I think that depends not just, for example, on people using it, but also on if there are dictionaries that people consult, and if everyone uses the same method. For the time being that isn’t the case yet, with all Cantonese speakers everywhere using the same format or dictionary, for now everyone is gradually getting accustomed to Jyutping. There are also some arguments over how some things should be written, with one person saying one way and one saying another. Also, for the time being people don’t think that this is the most pressing issues, the most important problem, because if schools don’t teach or test it, well… So this problem isn’t huge, and for now there is more a phenomenon of many schools of thought arising on the issue.)
Cameron: 係呀係呀。所以我覺得如果有啲聽衆對呢個話題有興趣，我好鍾意一本書，叫 Cantonese as Written Language。就係係 Don Snow 教授寫嘅，應該係 2002 年出版嘅。
(Yes, yes. I think if listeners are particularly interested in this issue, there is a book I like called Cantonese as Written Language. It’s written by Professor Don Snow, I think it was published in 2002.)
Raymond: 係。
(Yes)
Cameron: 但係佢講嘅就係，呢個就係，廣東話係幾時開始俾人寫嘅，同埋佢哋用乜嘢 genre，或者乜嘢 platform 寫廣東話。因爲同普通話唔一樣，所以有自己嘅歷史同埋自己嘅過程。所以我覺得呢本書幾好睇。同埋我覺得你講得就非常之啱，就係拼音好重要。如果你要多啲了解廣東話，特別係作爲外國人，有一個拼音嘅輸入法58係好重要嘅。因爲令到你就打字嘅時候都可以用廣東話，唔使就係用嗰個普通話嘅拼音。因爲如果你不嬲59用嗰個國語嘅拼音，你就會，你嗰個國語嘅發音好標準，但係可能你廣東話嘅發音冇咁標準，所以都有呢個問題呀。
(But what he discusses is when people began to written down colloquial Cantonese, what genre they use, or on what platform are they writing Cantonese. Since it’s not the same as Mandarin, so it has it’s own history and process. I think the book is great. I also think what you said is absolutely right in that romanization is very important. If you want to understand Cantonese better, especially if you are a foreigner, having a pinyin input system [for a computer or phone] is very important. When you’re typing, you don’t need to use the Mandarin pinyin input. If you always use Mandarin pinyin, your Mandarin pronunciation will be great, but your Cantonese pronunciation might be substandard, so this is also a problem.)
Raymond: 嗯，我覺得就算嗰個語言自然嘅演變60啦，同埋教學呢，都係口語行先61嘅。即係我哋係先識得講，然之後先發展個文字，先去諗點樣記錄落嚟。噉所以呢我覺得我哋大家，而家我哋口語有一套拼音幫助我哋即係定咗所謂一個標準呀，大家有共識62之後呢，再慢慢研究點樣配合我哋嘅口語，再發展63呢個粵語嘅文字。噉呀都係一步一步嚟啦。不過而家我覺得，大部分譬如用粵語做母語嘅人呢，基本上亦都可以，未必話每一個字一模一樣，但係大家大概都可以用文字、用粵文，即係粵語嘅文字嚟溝通64喇。因爲你頭先都話啦，大家而家都發短信65呀，大家喺網上呀，甚至而家都開始用粵語、粵文嚟寫小說呀。而家流行文化都係好多嘅粵語嘅文字去出現呢，我覺得呢個係，即係必然會隨著呢個方向66去發展。
(Yes, I think that the natural evolution of languages, as well as language education, focus on spoken language first. We first know how to speak, and then we develop an understanding of the writing, thinking about how to record things in writing. I think that we all now have a romanization system to help us set a sort of spoken standard, and once everyone reaches a consensus, we will gradually figure out how it matches with our spoken language, and we will further develop written Cantonese [using Chinese characters]. It also happens step by step. But for now, I think that for most native Cantonese speakers, although it might not be the exact same characters, they can for the most part use [Chinese] chjaracters, Cantonese characters, to communicate. As you said before, when people text or communicate online, they have started using Cantonese, or using Cantonese to write novels. Popular culture has also witnessed the use of many Cantonese characters, and I think that this will follow this trend of development.)