#23 Guest Episode: Jade Wu, Part 1 (粵語)
Part one of our interview with Jade Wu, author, podcaster, and teacher of Cantonese, Taishanese (Toisanese), and Mandarin. She has published textbooks for teaching all three languages, with Learn to Speak Taishanese I having come out just this year. In this episode we talk to Jade about what got her into writing textbooks, as well as some of the differences between Cantonese and Taishanese–she even gives us a little lesson.
Vocabulary
1. 順口 seon6 hau2 (ADJ) easily pronounced2. 純粹 seon4 seoi5 (ADV) purely
3. 渠道 keoi4 dou6 (N) channel, means
4. 親自 can1 zi6 (ADV) in person
5. 採訪 coi2 fong2 (N/V) interview / to interview
6. 罕見 hon2 gin3 (ADJ) rare, hardly seen
7. 彩蛋 coi2 daan2 (N) Easter egg, bonus scene
8. 聯絡 lyun4 lok3 (V) to contact
9. 愛好者 ngoi3 hou3 ze2 (N) enthusiast
10. 內容 noi6 jung4 (N) content
11. 話題 waa6 tai4 (N) topic
12. 模式 mou4 sik1 (N) mode
13. 在場 zoi6 coeng4 (ADJ) present, on the scene
14. 皺眉 zau3 mei4 (VO) frown (lit. wrinkle + eyebrow)
15. 何德何能 ho4 dak1 ho4 nang4 (EXP) What merits or talents (rhetorical question on one’s worthiness)
16. 親身 can1 san1 (ADV) in person
17. 經歷 ging1 lik6 (N) experience
18. 伴侶 bun6 leoi5 (N) mate, partner
19. 引起 jan5 hei2 (V) to cause, to lead to, to give rise to
20. 共鳴 gung6 ming4 (N) resonance
21. 缺乏 kyut3 fat6 (V) to lack
22. 角度 gok3 dou6 (N) angle, perspective
23. 針對 zam1 deoi3 (V) to direct at, to target
24. 華僑 waa4 kiu4 (N) Chinese overseas
25. 引薦 jan5 zin3 (V) to recommend
26. 身處 san1 cyu3/5 (V) to be at, to be located
27. 第一手 dai6 jat1 sau2 (N) first hand
28. 親切感 can1 cit3 gam2 (N) a sense of cordiality/intimacy
29. 搜集 sau2 zaap6 (N) to collect
30. 混淆 wan6 ngaau4 (V) to confuse with, to mix up
31. 差異 caa1 ji6 (N) difference
32. 準確 zeon2 kok3 (ADJ) accurate
33. 推動 teoi1 dung6 (V) to advocate, to promote
34. 發展 faat3 zin2 (N/V) development, to develop
35. 興奮 hing1 fan5 (ADJ/N) excited; excitement
36. 主流 zyu2 lau4 (N) mainstream
37. 尤其 jau4 kei4 (ADV) especially
38. 參考 caam1 haau2 (V/N) to consult; reference
39. 親近 can1 gan6 (V/N) to be close to; close
40. 鏡頭 geng3 tau4 (N) camera lens
41. 結構 git3 kau3 (N) structure
42. 弊 bai6 (ADJ) awful, disastrous
43. 忽然間 fat1 jin4 gaan1 (ADV) suddenly
44. 上手 soeng5 sau2 (VO) to get started
45. 促進 cuk1 zeon3 (V) boost, promote
46. 移民 ji4 man4 (VO/N) to emigrate; immigrant
47. 範圍 faan6 wai4 (N) range, scope
48. 搵食 wan2 sik6 (VO) to make a living
49. 餵飽 wai3 baau2 (VC) to feed (until full)
50. 維持生計 wai4 ci4 sang1 gai3 (VO) to make ends meet
51. 熱情 jit6 cing4 (ADJ) enthusiastic, passionate
52. 代溝 doi6 kau1 (N) generation gap
53. 習俗 zaap6 zuk6 (N) custom, tradition
54. 童年 tung4 nin4 (N) childhood
55. 明顯 ming4 hin2 (ADJ) obvious
56. 轉換 zyun3 wun6 (V/N) to convert; conversion
57. 元音 jyun4 jam1 (N) vowel
58. 新穎 san1 wing6 (ADJ) novel, innovative
59. 版本 baan2 bun2 (N) version
60. 出入 ceot1 jap6 (N) discrepancy
61. 多樣性 do1 joeng6 sing3 (N) diversity
62. 貢獻 gung3 hin3 (N/V) contribution; to contribute
63. 探索 taam3 sok3 (V) to explore
64. 提議 tai4 ji5 (V/N) to suggest; suggestion
ADJ - Adjective
ADV - Adverb
EXP - Expression
N - Noun
V - Verb
VC - Verb complement
VO - Verb object
Transcript
Raymond: 今集有我哋同作家、播客節目主持、兼粵語、台山話、及普通話老師，伍嘉瑩 Jade Wu 訪問嘅第一部分。佢出版咗呢三種語言嘅教材，其中學講台山話第一冊，今年啱啱出版。呢一集我哋同 Jade 討論吓佢點樣開始創作教材。同埋廣東話同台山話嘅一啲分別。佢甚至即席教我哋幾句㖭。
Cameron: This episode features the first part of our interview with Jade Wu, author, podcaster, and teacher of Cantonese, Taishanese, and Mandarin. She has published textbooks for teaching all three languages, with Learn to Speak Taishanese I having come out just this year. In this episode we talk to Jade about what got her into writing textbooks, as well as some of the differences between Cantonese and Taishanese–she even gives us a little lesson.
Raymond: 好啦，噉我哋開始喇。噉呀，我哋今日好開心，我哋呢又有一個好特別嘅嘉賓呢嚟同我哋傾吓偈。噉呢佢就係阿 Jade of InspirLang。 係咪呀？我冇講錯呀係咪？
(Alright, let’s get started. We’re very happy today, as we have a very special guest who has come to speak with us. It’s Jade of InspirLang—right? Did I say it right?)
Jade: 冇講錯，其實你係第一個講啱嘅人。因爲以前呢大家都係，我作嗰陣時我係諗住 inspiring languages，所以我係一開始嗌 “Inspire Lang”。但係後尾啲人呢就會嗌 “InspirLang”、“InspirLang”，我又覺得，Ok，都幾順口1，噉就開始噉樣嗌喇。噉多謝你！
(Absolutely right, you’re actually the first person who said it right. Because before everyone, well, when I first made it what I was intending was “inspiring languages,” so in the beginning I called it “Inspire Lang,” but later people kept saying, “InspirLang,” “Inspirlang,” and I thought, “Ok, that also rolls off the tongue,” so I started saying it as well. So thank you!)
Raymond: 都多謝你解釋，即係介紹埋你嘅品牌1噉樣啦。噉但係我認識你呢，就唔係純粹2通過呢個渠道3。我最初認識你，我係，如果眨吓眼都… 我都唔記得幾多年喇，噉我直程喺紐約嗰度親自4見到你。主要係你，我諗係你最早嘅時候，你做咗一本即係教廣東話嘅書，噉其實我喺媒體嗰度見到呢個報道，咁啱我又去到紐約啦，噉呀我透過個朋友認識你啦。噉不過講咁多，我覺得應該都係等你自我介紹吓自己，講吓你嘅背景噉樣好唔好呀？
(Thank you for your explanation and for introducing your brand like that. However, when I got to know you, it wasn’t just through this channel. When I first met you, I, well, it feels like just yesterday… I don’t remember how many years ago it was, but I definitely saw you in-person in New York. What’s important is that it was early on back when you first did a book for teaching Cantonese, and I saw your report on it in the media, and it just so happened that I was in New York, and so I met you through a friend. How about you say a little more, I think we should have you introduce yourself a bit more, maybe say a bit about your background?)
Jade: Ok，好呀，唔該晒呀。噉好似 Raymond 講噉樣啦，我叫做 Jade。噉我就開始咗 InspirLang 呢個網站、呢個品牌、呢個學校去教廣東話啦，但係其實一開始呢，我最初頭一開始做嘅呢，都唔係書啦，一開始、最一開始應該係 podcast，好似你哋而家做嘅 podcast 噉樣。但係呢就唔係用呢一種 interview 採訪5嘅形式，就多啲全部都係好簡單，到而家都仲係嘅好簡單，噉我講一句英文，跟住又翻譯成中文、廣東話，跟住又擺一句、擺一啲粵拼噉樣俾啲人去學習。噉以前呢就冇咁多資源啦，噉所以就比較罕見6、rare，比較罕見所以啲人又幾鍾意聽。噉到咗後期呢，就好似你所講，我就做多咗一啲書面上嘅嘢啦，譬如話教材方面嘅嘢，就寫咗嗰本第一本書，叫做 Learn to Speak Cantonese I。
(Ok, sure, thank you. It’s basically like Raymond already said, my name is Jade. I am the founder of InspirLang, a website, brand, and school for teaching Cantonese. But when I first started, there were no books, it was just supposed to be a podcast, sort of like the podcast you two are doing now. But it was not meant to be this sort of interview format, but rather more simple, and it’s still very simple, where I say a sentence of English, and then I translate it into Cantonese, and then there is another sentence and some Jyutping to help people study. Before there weren’t that many resources, they were rather rare, so people really liked it. Later on, as you said, I did more in terms of publishing, like with teaching materials, and I wrote my first book called Learn to Speak Cantonese I.)
噉嗰陣時呢，我俾一啲彩蛋7，大家聽吓。噉就係一開始我係住喺在紐約啦而家，噉我出咗書冇幾耐嗰陣時呢，我就聯絡8咗我哋紐約本地大學嘅一個廣東話教授啦，跟住我就同佢出嚟傾吓偈呀、食吓嘢呀噉樣，傾吓點樣教廣東話嘅嘢。噉跟住呢，佢就同我提起你喇。佢就話：“溫哥華有一個教授呢，佢都有聽過你呢本書呀，咩嘢咩嘢咩嘢，噉我下一次就介紹你哋識啦！”噉樣。所以其實雖然呢個一開始嗰陣時係好細嘅一件事，同埋都邊個都唔識，淨係單單係鍾意做呢樣嘢，但係後尾呢就可以識到，通過呢個渠道呢，識到好多其他嘅廣東話嘅語言愛好者9啦，同埋教師啦，所以都幾開心，係囉。b
(Back then, let me stick in some Easter eggs for everyone to listen to. At the start I was living in New York, and not long after I put out the book, I reached out to a local Cantonese teacher at a university here. We went out to chat—had some food and discussed about how to teach Cantonese, and they actually brought you [Raymond] up in conversation. They said, “There’s this teacher in Vancouver, he’s also heard of your book, something something something, let me introduce you two next time!”Although it wasn’t a big thing in the beginning, and I didn’t know anybody, but I really liked doing these sorts of things [promoting Cantonese], and later I got to know more people, and through this channel, I met a lot of Cantonese enthusiasts and teachers, so I am quite happy.)
Cameron: 好，其實我想問吓你，寫噉樣嘅書嘅時候，你點決定用乜嘢內容10。就係有好多話題11都可以選，但係你點樣、你點揀嘅？
(Great. Actually, I am curious to hear about how when you’re writing your books, how you choose your content. There are a lot of topics that you could choose, so how do you pick?)
Jade: 係呀，好多謝你問呢個問題！因爲其實都唔係咁多人成日問我“點解你會噉樣寫呢本書”啦。噉有啲朋友呢，譬如有一啲 audiences、有啲聽衆唔係好清楚我呢本書寫嘅係咩啦。噉其實呢，我寫呢本書呢，就唔單止係譬如話一本教材、一本 textbook 噉樣嘅。噉我就用咗一個故事嘅模式12，譬如話係一個、有一個 story plotline 喺裏面嘅。噉內容呢就係話，有一個男仔叫做 Gabriel，佢去爲咗佢女朋友嘅媽媽去學廣東話，跟住呢本書呢就係佢一日裏面發生嘅嘢。噉每一個 chapter、每一個單元呢，都係佢通過唔同嘅話題呀，去好好哋噉同佢女朋友嘅媽媽去傾偈噉樣。
(Yes, thank you so much for asking me this question, as this is not something that people ask me a lot, like, “Why did you write your book like this?” Some friends, or for example some audiences, they’re not too clear on what this book is. In fact, this book is essentially a teaching material, a textbook. I used a story-driven structure with a plotline in it. The content is basically about a young man named Gabriel who studies Cantonese in order to converse with his girlfriend’s mom, and this book is about what happens to him on a daily basis. Every chapter, every unit, they all come through topics that he discussed with his girlfriend’s mom.)
咁點解會諗到噉樣寫呢？其實係，其實唔係真係話“呀我好有創意”定係點樣。係因爲我一開始寫咗，我係一開始教廣東話嗰陣時呢，我就已經知道我好想寫一本書。噉第一個原因係因為我好鍾意睇書，噉好鍾意寫嘢呢，其實我鍾意寫嘢多過睇書嘅。噉因為一開始教廣東話嘅時候，我哋可能你哋、我哋在場13咁多位我哋可能… 你哋、我哋在場咁多位都可能會意識到、 realize 我哋唔係好多教廣東話嘅書，尤其是係用英文去教廣東話嘅書。噉我知道我好想寫一本噉樣嘅書，噉到咗後期呢，我睇咗一本書呢，一本教韓文嘅書，叫做 Talk To Me In Korean。噉跟住我就覺得，啊我好想有廣東話都有一本噉樣嘅書呀！我想廣東話有一本屬於我哋嘅 “Talk To Me In Cantonese” 噉樣係咪？
(So why did I think of writing it like this? In fact, it’s not me saying that I’m super creative. It’s because in the very beginning, when I first started teaching Cantonese, I knew that I wanted to write a book. The first reason is that I really like reading books and writing—in fact, I like writing more than I like reading. Still, because I first started teaching Cantonese, I, and maybe you guys, all of us present, realized that there aren’t that many books for teaching Cantonese, particularly books in English, so I knew that I wanted to write this sort of book. Later on I saw a book, one for teaching Korean, called Talk to Me in Korean, and I thought, “Wow, I really wish there was a book like this for Cantonese! I wish we had our own Talk to Me in Cantonese, right?”)
噉所以呢，我就有咗呢個諗法，噉我就寫咗兩個單元啦，兩個 chapters 噉樣。噉我就當然係第一時間俾我嘅學生睇咗先啦，噉我學生睇咗就，就開始皺眉14喇噉樣。“嗯…你覺得邊個會睇呢本書呢？”即係佢講係、即係佢係非常之咁直接啦係咪？佢就話：“啊… You know, 係唔錯嘅，但係你覺得， you know，你邊個... 市面上都有差唔多噉樣嘅書啦，你覺得、憑咩覺得人哋會買你本書嘅呢？你呢本好過其它嗰啲教材呢？”噉樣。噉我又覺得，佢又講得幾啱。噉當時喺我嘅 MacBook 裏面呢，好似 Raymond 頭先講電腦噉樣，我又擺埋佢一邊。我就諗住就唔寫嘅喇，噉我就擺埋一邊啦，噉到咗後期呢，我就去咗北京去學一個語言項目啦，就教人哋點樣教中文嘅，唔係廣東話，就係淨係中文。
(So that was my thinking, and then I wrote two units, two chapters. So of course the first people I showed it to was my students, and when they saw it they started to frown and were like, “Um… Who do you think will read this?” That’s how direct they were. Then they said, “You know, it’s not bad, but I think that the market is already full of books like this, so what makes you think people will buy this book in particular? Is your book better than other teaching materials?” I thought that what they said was spot-on. At the time I had the book on my MacBook, sort of like the computer stuff Raymond was talking about before, and I put it to the side. I thought I might as well not write it, push it to the side, and then later I went to Beijing for a course that was on teaching Chinese, not Cantonese, but Mandarin.)
噉學完之後呢，我就覺得，即係，用廣東話我哋會講“呀，你何德何能15，點解人哋會覺得，要需要向你學習呢？有咁多呢啲教授佢哋教得， you know，好好又有好多經驗”噉樣。所以我後尾諗起呢個故事係因爲我自己嘅親身16經歷17啦，同埋我又有好多學生，佢哋好多都係因爲佢哋嘅伴侶18呀， you know， partner 佢哋想學… 佢哋本身講廣東話或者佢哋嘅父母、屋企人講廣東話所以佢哋想學。所以我就覺得，呀我想寫一本噉樣嘅書係可以同佢哋引起19共鳴20嘅。即係 like 我想佢哋， you know，echo with this book and with the story。所以就寫咗噉樣一本書喇。
(After the course, I thought, as we would say in Cantonese, “‘What merits do you actually have?’ Why would someone think they need to learn from you? There are so many teachers that teach really well and have a lot of experience.” So later on I thought of this story because of my own personal experience, as well as some of my students, a lot of them study Cantonese because their partner speaks Cantonese or their parents or family members do. So I thought this sort of book might resonate with them.)
Raymond: 你都講喇，即係除咗而家市面上缺乏21用英語去教廣東話嘅教材之外呢，其實我覺得更加緊要嘅就係你嘅角度22。我好記得嘅，你嗰陣時啲媒體訪問你嘅時候呢，你都話“係喺海外嘅華人、或者海外嘅學生想學粵語”。同埋係針對23呢，即係甚至本身有粵語背景嘅人士呢，即係佢哋要 pick up 返，即係冇乜教材呢，有呢個相關文化嘅內容，我覺得呢個好緊要，真係。
(Beside what you’ve just spoken about regarding the lack of books on the market that use English, I think more important is your point of view. I remember well how in some of the media interviews that you did you also mentioned ethnically Chinese people overseas as well as foreign students who want to study Cantonese. And in terms of students who specifically have a Cantonese background who might want to pick up Cantonese again, your textbook has a lot of content related to culture that I think is very important, really.)
Jade: 係呀，因爲好多… 當然佢哋，我問每一個學生：“你以後想唔想去香港？”其實唔一定係香港嘅，因爲好多學生佢哋學廣東話，唔係因爲佢哋係香港人，或者佢屋企人係香港人，佢哋只不過屋企人係廣東人呀，某一個地方嚟嘅，甚至係廣東嘅華僑24或者佢哋唔知喺邊度，其他地方出世嘅，所以其實都唔一定係香港啦噉樣講。所以我唔想，即係將佢設定咗喺某一個地方發生嘅故事。噉我問一啲學生嘅時候呢，我通常就會問：“你哋以後又想唔想去香港呀？”或者“你哋以前有冇去過？”噉大多數可能就去過一次呀，或者係冇啦，或者以後好想去啦。噉你同… 我哋知道，呢啲就會係我嘅讀者啦我知道。
(Yes, because a lot of students, I ask them, “Do you want to go to Hong Kong at some point?” For a lot of students the answer is no, because when they study Cantonese, it’s not because they are a Hongkonger or that their family members are from Hong Kong, but more that their family members are Cantonese overseas Chinese or from some other place, they aren’t necessarily Hongkongers, so I didn’t want to create story that happened in one particular place. But when I ask some students, I often say, “Do you want to go to Hong Kong at some point?” or “Have you been before?” Most have been at least once, or they haven’t, or they want to go at some point. So we know that these are my readers.)
如果我寫個故事出嚟，係呢啲讀者每一個人可以有共鳴嘅，你講到“香港邊度行山好好”，但係大家都唔知道有呢個地方，噉當然係靠我哋去，即係引薦25佢哋去即係呢啲地方啦，但係同時間我想、我希望我嘅故事呢，可以俾佢睇到之後覺得“呀、呢本書我就好似書裏面嘅人物噉樣，我覺得佢係寫緊我。”噉所以我覺得係… 同埋我自己身處26美國、身處喺我哋講海外啦，噉我嘅第一手27資料、我寫出嚟嘅嘢，當然其實係會更加，即係有呢個，即係親切感28嘅程度會高過我寫其他嘅地方啦。所以我第一本書嘅，寫嘅地方就係紐約，噉就發生係紐約嘅唐人街，就係噉樣啦。
(If the story that I write is something that resonates with all my readers, if you talk about “Where is good to hike in Hong Kong,” not everyone will know what place you are talking about, so it relies on us going, recommending them to go there, but at the same time, I want my story to be able to make them think, “Oh, I feel like the person being written about is me.” Furthermore, I myself am in America, I’m in what we’d call overseas, and I have some firsthand material that I wrote out that could give it more of a sense of intimacy than if I had written about somewhere else. So for the first book I wrote about New York, with a story taking place in the city’s Chinatown.)
Raymond: 你應該搵個機會幫我哋寫一個溫哥華版嘅。
(You should find a chance to write a Vancouver edition for us.)
Jade: Yeah! 係呀，我下一個，我寫咗一個，呢個係台山話嘅啦當然。我係寫咗係三藩市嘅故仔。噉但係好搞笑嘅呢，就係其實我仲未去過三藩市，所以我仲等緊、仲等緊去三藩市。但係我寫咗個古仔呢就要做多啲嘅資料搜集29啦，同埋要同多啲人傾吓，“你住喺三藩市係點樣㗎？”“你鍾意去邊一啲地方呀？”“你搭車嗰陣時係點樣？” 就做多啲呢方面嘅資料搜集囉，係呀。
(Yeah, for my next book, I wrote about Toisanese of course. I set it in San Francisco. What’s funny is that I have never been to San Francisco, so I am still waiting for an opportunity to go there. But in writing the story, I had to collect a lot of materials and talk with a lot of people, “What is it like living in San Francisco?” “What places do you like going to?” “What’s it like riding transport there?” So I had to do more of this sort of collecting materials.)
Cameron: 嗯，噉呢個台山話嘅嘢，就好多人佢哋可能聽過有台山話呢噉樣嘅語言, 但係佢哋可能唔了解台山話同廣東話之間嘅分別，你可唔可以就解釋吓？
(Yes, regarding Toisanese, a lot of people might have heard that there is this language, but they might not understand how it is different from Cantonese, would you mind explaining a little bit?)
Jade: 我可以好簡單噉樣，即係介紹俾大家聽台山話係咩、點解成日都有人會混淆30廣東話同埋台山話。我講一個小小，一個細細哋嘅 anecdote 先啦。噉譬如話，我有成日有好多朋友啦，佢哋由細到大佢哋都係講台山話嘅。噉但係呢好多時佢哋都覺得自己講嘅係廣東話，因爲由細到大冇人會同佢地解釋“哦你講嘅係台山（話）”佢哋就，真係會以爲自己講嘅係廣東話啦。譬如話有一次我朋友去一個朋友屋企食飯，噉佢阿媽呢就會成日講“hieg1, hieg1 唔 hieg1 呀? hieg1 唔 hieg1 呀？” instead of like 我哋廣東話會講“食唔食”噉樣。
(I can give a fairly simple explanation. And introduce a little bit of Toisanese to everyone, as well as why everyone always mixes it up with Cantonese. I’ll first tell a little anecdote. So I have a lot of friends who have spoken Toisanese since they were little, but they always think that what they have been speaking is Cantonese, as no one ever explained to them, “Ah, what you are speaking is Toisanese.” Instead they just think that what they speak is Cantonese. Like one time, I had a friend who went to their friend’s house to eat, and their mom would always say, “hieg1, hieg1 唔 hieg1 呀? hieg1 唔 hieg1 呀？” instead of the Cantonese equivalent, “sik6 m4 sik6.”)
噉所以就有一啲方面嘅唔同啦、差異31啦。但係其實準確32嚟講呢，廣東話呢係喺唔同嘅廣東嘅地區裏面算係一個共同嘅語言啦。譬如話如果你係廣東喺台山，台山係細過廣東，台山係喺廣東裏面嘅。噉喺廣東其他嘅地方呢，佢哋就會講廣東話啦。或者，因為台山人，遇到一個廣東其他地方嚟嘅人呢就會，譬如話廣州人呢，佢哋行埋一齊呢佢哋可能就會講廣東話喇。
(So there are some parts that are different, some distinctions, but to be exact, in different places, “Cantonese” is basically a lingua franca. So for example, in Toisan in Guangdong Province, Toisan is a smaller place than Guangdong, as it is inside Guangdong. So in other places in Guangdong they might speak Cantonese, or if a Toisanese person meets a person from another part of Guangdong, like from Guangzhou, they might just speak Cantonese together.)
所以呢好多時台山人，因爲有呢個廣東嘅媒體呀，同埋香港嘅媒體嘅影響呢，好多台山人而家，而家台山人呢都會識得講廣東話。但係唔一定每一個廣東人都識得講台山話啦，因爲台山係細啲嘅，台山係喺廣東裏面。噉所以呢，佢哋可能會估到大概，即係靠估，聽吓同廣東話有咩嘢相同嘅地方，佢哋可能會聽得到、聽得出。但係其實就都係唔一定會識囉。所以呢個就係廣東話同台山話最大嘅分別，係喇。
(So a lot of times, Toisanese people, because they have Cantonese media, and also because of the influence of Hong Kong media, a lot of Toisanese people now can also speak Cantonese. However, a Cantonese person would not necessarily know Toisanese, as Toisan is a smaller place inside Guangdong. So they might rely on inference and parts of Toisanese that are similar to Cantonese in order to pick out the meaning when they hear Toisanese. However, they might not understand. So this is the general distinction between Cantonese and Toisanese.)
Raymond: 其實即係後來我都知道，你除咗有廣東話嘅教材之外啦，噉你而家都係喺度推動33、發展34緊呢即係都有台山話嘅教材，其實我聽到好興奮35嘅。噉因為呢我真係離開咗香港之後，嗱我當然我本身唔係台山人啦，噉都唔多唔少有聽過呢樣嘢。噉，但係我發現真係嚟到海外之後，先至接觸得更加多，即係講台山話嘅人士，包括我嘅學生呢，喺好多嘅唐人街呢，其實呢台山話即係曾經一度都係一個好主流36嘅，呢個粵語嚟嘅。噉所以我覺得認識呢樣嘢都幾好。不如呢趁呢個機會呢，你可唔可以即係示範或者教我哋少少好基本嘅台山話呢？
(However, I know that in addition to Cantonese, you’ve been developing and promoting teaching materials for Toisanese, and I hear there has been a lot of interest. After I left Hong Kong, of course I am not Toisanese, and I had heard some of it, but I found that after going overseas, that was the first time I ran into a lot more people who speak Toisanese, including my students and many people in Chinatown, and it’s even been a mainstream form of Cantonese. So I think getting to know about these things is great. How about you take this opportunity to demonstrate and teach us some basic Toisanese?)
Jade: 哈哈，好，好呀！
(Haha, sure!)
Raymond: 因為我覺得好有趣喎。
(I think it will be very interesting.)
Jade: 係呀，好呀！因爲呢，尤其37是呢，因爲我而家更加熟悉我哋嘅羅馬拼法啦，因爲我唔係有好多標準嘅台山話嘅拼法。噉我唯有，即係用一個我自己鍾意嘅、即係我自己寫嗰個，噉我就可以連埋呢個一齊教埋你哋。噉好有趣嘅呢，就係其實我喺創作呢一個羅馬拼法，即係我哋講嘅 romanization 嗰陣時呢，係，我係參考38咗粵拼嘅。因爲我腦裏面係已經識得粵拼，噉我就覺得可能有啲學生佢哋識粵拼跟住嚟學。
(Yeah, sure! Particularly since I’m more familiar with our romanization system, as there aren’t many standardized ways to romanize Toisanese, I’ll use one I like, one that I wrote, and I can even teach it to you. What’s interesting is that when I was making this romanization system, I consulted Jyutping, as I already had it in my head, so I thought some students might study my romanization after studying Jyutping.)
噉唔好理其它學生先啦，而家我自己都顧唔掂。噉我諗返我自己，我自己就覺得，一個我，即係比較識用嘅羅馬拼法就會好啲囉。噉我諗吓我哋想，我哋頭先一入嚟嗰陣時呢，因爲我哋三個人都喺唔同嘅時區啦、唔同嘅地方啦係咪？噉一入嚟嗰陣時呢，我哋就會講“早晨”，廣東話，係咪？廣東話講“早晨”，但係普通話唔會噉講吖嘛，但係呢台山話就會喇。所以呢多多少少你就會覺得台山話係親近39，即係接近廣東話多過呢個普通話嘅。噉我哋講早晨嗰陣時呢，台山話就會講“dau2 sin3, dau2 sin3”。
(No need to mind other students for now, I won’t take on their situation. I thought back to my own case and thought it would be better to stay close to a romanization system I know well. So think about us [on the podcast], when we first started our chat, since we are all in different time zones and places, the first thing we might say in Cantonese is “zou2 san4,” [good morning] right? In Cantonese it’s zou2 san4 , but in Mandarin you wouldn’t use this expression, but in Toisanese you would. So this will help you get that Toisanese is closer to Cantonese than it is to Mandarin. So when we say “good morning” in Toisanese, we say “dau2 sin3, dau2 sin3.”)
Raymond: “Dau2 sin3”.
Cameron: “Dau2 sin3”.
Jade: 係呀，你哋都講得好好呀，“dau2 sin3” 啦，就係噉樣。
(Yup, you both said it quite well, “dau2 sin3,” just like that.)
Raymond: “dau2 sin3 啦”。同一個字嚟㗎係咪？即係“早晨”。
(“Dau2 sin3.” It's the same characters, right?)
Jade: 係呀！冇錯呀，係同一個字。跟住呢，譬如話，我哋跟住落嚟呢，用廣東話你哋會點樣問候人哋呀？“朝早”、“早晨”，跟住你會講咩呀？好似我哋頭先真係問咗呢個問題呀。
(Yup! Correct, the same characters. Now, for instance, moving on, how would you greet people in Cantonese? After good morning, what would you say? It’s like we said this to each other earlier.)
Cameron: 哦係呀，哈哈。
(Yup, haha.)
Raymond: “你食咗飯未呀？”
(Have you eaten?)
Jade: “食咗飯未呀？”或者“食咗早餐未？”而家仲咁早係咪？噉我哋，噉首先多數人都可以用到“你食咗飯未？”噉我哋就教呢個啦。噉我哋就會話，好似我哋頭先講：“你 hieg1”，“hieg1 ” for “食”啦係咪？我哋對比，嗱“你食”，但係我哋講“你 hieg1”。 For “咗”， 就呢個分別喇。我哋講 “hieg1”，台山話“hieg1” 噉廣州話就“食”。噉廣東話講“咗”、“做咗嘢”， past aspect 嗰陣時呢，我哋就會講得“a”。“hieg1 a, hieg1 a”
(“Have you eaten?” Or “Have you had breakfast?” since it is still early, right? Most people might first use “Have you eaten?” So I’ll teach you that. What we say is similar to before: “nei2 hieg1,” with “hieg1” meaning to eat, right? In Cantonese it’s nei2 sik6, but for )
Raymond: “Hieg1 aa3, hieg1 aa3.”
(Eaten, eaten.)
Cameron: “Hieg1 aa3.”
(Eaten.)
Jade: 噉“飯”係一樣啦。“你 hieg1 aa3 飯未呀？”一樣嘅。“你 hieg1 aa3 飯未呀？”噉樣。
(So “food/rice” is the same. Nei5 hieg1 aa3 faan6 mei6 a3? The same. Nei5 hieg1 aa3 faan6 mei6 a3? Like that.)
Raymond: 都差唔多喎。“hieg1 aa3 飯未呀？”
(They don’t differ that much. “hieg1 aa3 faan6 mei6 a3?”)
Jade: 係呀！
(Yup!)
Cameron: “你 hieg1 aa3 飯未呀？”
(Nei5 hieg1 aa3 faan6 mei6 a3?)
Jade: 哈哈，好！佢關咗鏡頭40，冇人會知道你唔係台山人㗎喇。哈哈！
(Haha, very good! If he turned off the camera, no one would know he isn’t Taishanese! Haha.)
Raymond: 咁犀利？
(That impressive?)
Jade: M-hmm, m-hmm.
Raymond: 係啦，“hieg1 aa3 飯未呀？”
(Yes, hieg1 aa3 faan6 mei6 a3?)
Jade: Yeah, “dau2 sin3! 你 hieg1 aa3 飯未呀？”噉樣。
(Yes, “Good morning! Have you eaten?” Like that.
Raymond: “Dau2 sin3”.
(Good morning.)
Jade: M-hmm, 係喇冇錯。噉所以就，結構41嚟講， structure 或者結構嚟講呢，其實係好接近廣東話嘅。有時啲發音呢都好接近，但係佢又有少少唔同噉樣囉，所以就其實唔係我哋大家想像中咁難.可能我哋大家覺得“嘩好難呀，呢個、呢樣嘢”，其實多多少少係因爲資源比較少啦，好似我哋以前廣東話資源更加少嗰陣時我哋都會覺得好難學。但係而家如果係有多啲資源嘅話呢，多啲人去，即係解釋呢樣嘢嘅時候呢，我哋就會發現，其實唔係我哋想象中咁難喎噉樣。希望你可以帶到呢個感覺俾人哋，唔係人哋覺得越學越難呀，噉樣就弊42喇。
(M-hmmm, correct. So to finish things off, when it comes to the [sentence] structure, it’s actually quite similar to Cantonese. Sometimes the pronunciation is very similar as well, but it’s a little different, so it’s not as difficult as we imagine. Maybe everyone thinks, “Wow, this stuff is so hard,” but for the most part it’s because there are fewer materials than for Cantonese, similar to before when we had fewer resources for Cantonese and it seemed difficult to study. But now if we have more materials, when more people go and explain this stuff, we’ll find that it’s not as difficult as we imagined. You want to make it so more people think like this rather than thinking that it gets harder the more that you study—that would be awful.)
Raymond: 嗯，係呀，我覺得你淨係教兩句呢，我忽然間43諗到啲嘢。即係呢，有啲譬如對語言有啲興趣嘅，譬如本身講廣東話嘅人啦，噉而家都好多人會學、或者識講普通話啦。噉但係呢，可能又有啲人話，其實普通話都有佢嘅難度呢，噉我又覺得我哋嘅廣東話同台山話呢，即係其實嗰個相似度近啲呢，要學上手44更易呀，其實我可能都會有啲，令到一啲廣東母語者，其實呀會唔會考慮呢？都學埋呢一個嘅台山話呀，甚至其他四邑話，呢個係四邑話其中一個啦，一個分支啦。即係其實可能都可以促進45你同你嘅，你啲親戚呀，或者你祖父母輩，我諗可能都有啲人係講呢啲話噉樣。
(Yes, you’ve only taught us two sentences, and what I suddenly realized is that for those who are interested in languages or who are themselves speakers of Cantonese, a lot of people will go study it, or those who already speak Mandarin. Of course, maybe some people will point out that Mandarin also has its difficult parts, and I also think that Cantonese and Toisanese are very close, so getting started [after knowing Cantonese] is easier. There’s also another thing for Cantonese speakers to consider, which is that after studying Toisanese or other Seiyap dialects [“Seiyap” refers to four counties in Guangdong with specific offshoots of Cantonese: Toisan, Sanwui, Yanping, and Hoiping]—as Toisanese is one of those four dialects—it might encourage you to use them with your relatives or your parents’ generation, as I think there are still people who use them.)
Jade: 係呀，噉好有趣嘅就係我真係有學生噉樣嚟學，佢地本身係香港人，但係點解佢哋會想學台山話呢？但係大多數時候呢，都係一啲比較實際嘅原因啦，唔似得如果係一個台山話，即係本身屋企係講台山話嘅人，噉如果佢本身係講廣東話，佢點解要學台山話呢？其實同我哋住嘅地區好有關啦。譬如我住紐約啦，但係，譬如話，就算係三藩市呀，或者美國其他地方呀，如果佢哋華人居多嘅地方呢，都會有好多台山人啦，因爲佢哋以前係最早期移民46、由中國移民到海外嘅。但係好多都係台山人啦，因爲係有呢個地區，地區上嘅優勢啦，quote unquote 優勢。
(Yeah, what’s interesting is that I actually have students who are originally Hongkongers who go on to study Toisanese, but why? For the most part they have fairly practical reasons, it’s not just that they speak Toisanese at home, they actually speak Cantonese, so why do they study Toisanese? It has to do with where we live. For example, I live in New York, but if I were in San Francisco or another place in America, if it’s a place with a lot of ethnic Chinese, there would be a lot of Toisanese people, as they were some of the earliest immigrants who went from China. But a lot are Toisanese due to that so-called “regional dominance.”)
因爲我哋近海，噉所以呢就移民會容易一啲噉樣。噉所以呢個學生，點解呢啲講廣東話嘅學生，佢哋會學台山話呢？因爲佢哋嘅工作上面會接觸好多台山人啦。譬如話台山，講台山話嘅老人家啦，噉佢哋係，我頭先講咗，其實係我哋呢一輩、我哋呢一代嘅好多台山人都識得講廣東話，噉唔代表所有嘅台山人都會識廣東話係咪？噉有一啲我哋老一輩嘅人呀，譬如話我哋嘅公公婆婆呀呢啲，佢哋都唔會識得講廣東話。因為佢哋以前嘅活動嘅範圍47會細啲，唔似得我哋而家成日“我要去邊度旅遊呀，去邊度旅遊”。
(It’s because we [Toisanese] were situated more closely to the sea, so it was easier to emigrate. But why would these students who speak Cantonese study Toisanese? Because they encounter a lot of Toisanese in a professional setting. For example, a lot of older speakers of Toisanese, it’s like I said before… While a lot of people in our generation can speak Cantonese, that doesn’t mean all Toisanese people can speak it, right? So there are some people of older generations, like my grandpa and grandma, they can’t speak Cantonese, as the breadth of their daily social interactions was smaller, not like us today who can always say, “I want to go there to travel, or go there to travel.”)
以前就係顧住點樣搵食48呀、點樣可以餵飽49我啲仔女呀、點樣… 即係做嘢，跟住即係維持生計50噉樣。所以呢就而家啲人呢，就多啲旅遊。所以而家呢就，而家呢就多咗呢一啲嘅，即係譬如旅遊呀，去邊度邊度，可以接觸到呢啲語言，但係以前呢就唔係囉。噉所以就好多啲老一輩嘅人需要我哋去，我哋去即係幫手，即係工作嘅時候幫佢哋翻譯呀噉樣，係喇。
(Before they were focused more on just getting by and feeding their kids, working, making ends meet. Now people travel, they move around more and encounter more languages, but that wasn’t the case in the past. So a lot of people in older generations still need our help, like at work we need to translate for them.)
Cameron: 其實我而家喺台灣學緊台語。噉我發現台灣嘅政府，呢排好似熱情51噉推廣台語，同埋想俾多啲機會年輕人學台語。但係一個問題就係，佢哋用嘅課本，或者佢哋用嘅教材裏面有個代溝52。我意思就係，佢哋講啲嘢可能係上一代好鍾意講嘅嘢，或者係比較傳統嘅話題。但係有啲年輕人佢哋學台語嘅時候，可能佢哋想講多啲就係而家嘅問題，或者現代嘅問題。所以你自己寫課本嘅時候或者教書嘅時候，會唔會諗到呢個問題？或者會唔會發現你嘅學生都有呢個問題呀？
(In fact I am now learning Taiwanese in Taiwan. I found that the Taiwan government recently seemed to be enthusiastic about promoting the Taiwanese language, and wanted to offer more opportunities for young people to learn the Taiwanese. But one problem is that there is a generation gap in the content of the textbook, or the materials they use. What I mean is, what they talk about is something the previous generation likes to talk about, or the more traditional topics. However, when some young people are learning Taiwanese, they may want to talk about the issues now or the modern issues. So when you write your own textbook or teach, would you consider this problem? Or do you find your students having this problem too?)
Jade: 當然有呀。譬如話我好多學生呢，佢哋，如果我哋講緊台山話嘅話呢，噉好多學生佢哋入嚟嗰陣時呢，佢哋都會識得少少嘅台山話，但係佢哋永遠識嘅呢，都唔係一樣嘅。即係有五個學生，噉佢哋五個學生都會識唔同嘅一啲。我會，我自己會覺得，一啲好奇怪嘅嘢，都唔係我哋嘅，即係我哋主流裏面會學嘅“你食咗飯未呀？”或者係咩。佢哋會識得一啲好奇怪嘅習俗53啦，係咪， traditions, 一啲奇奇怪怪嘅食物嘅名。因爲係佢哋嘅童年54、佢哋細個嗰陣時佢哋嘅爺爺嫲嫲、公公婆婆會食嘅嘢。噉所以就，對我嚟講，係覺得 “Oh, emm…” 因爲我哋就當然有一樣嘢就係，可能我唔知道台語會唔會有嘅，就係除咗呢一啲嘅講法之外，台山話好大嘅挑戰呢就係，我哋方言裏面呢都仲有好多其他嘅方言，即係唔係都係方言啦，即係只不過係譬如話係唔同嘅口音呀、唔同嘅… 唔同嘅地區呀、村落呀噉樣，佢哋就會講唔一樣嘅台山話。噉有幾唔一樣呢？係可以去到佢嘅 vowel 都有少少唔同，但係可以轉換嘅，就即係譬如話，我哋可以聽得出好明顯55。
(Absolutely. For example, I have a lot of students, who, if we’re talking about Toisanese, already know a little of the language but they never speak it all the same way. That is, say there are five students, but the five students will know something a little different. I sometimes feel a little strange–it’s nothing like something we learn in the mainstream as " Have you eaten?" or things like that–they’ll know a lot of weird customs, traditions, or strange food names, etc. It is because of the food their grandpas and grandmas would eat in their childhood and when they are young. So, just to me, I felt "Oh, emm..." Because of course we have something that is, maybe I don't know if the Taiwanese language has it, just like in addition to this, one big challenge with learning Toisanese is that, within the dialect there are other dialects, and they are not necessary all dialects, but different accents, different areas and different villages, that they would speak different versions of Toisanese. How different can they be? There can be slight differences in the vowels, but they are interchangeable, which means I can hear the distinction very clearly.)
噉所以第一樣要做嘅嘢呢，就係，我覺得我哋要，即係要承認、要 acknowledge，即係呢一個係，係真係台山話嚟嘅，你講嘅係冇錯嘅，係我哋真係會噉講。喺尤其是係你屋企人嘅地方呢，佢哋活躍嘅地方，佢哋真係噉樣講。但係呢，喺我嘅課室裏面呢，就我冇辦法啦，因爲我只係識得一樣台山話，我冇可能真係有二十種嘅台山話都教晒大家。但係我可以教你哋點樣去轉換56，由我講嘅同你哋講嘅嘅分別呢，噉我呢個元音57呢就會變咗你嗰個元音。但係你唔需要一定要學我呢個，因爲你學廣東話、你學台山話原因，如果係爲咗去同你嘅屋企人溝通嘅話呢，噉你應該學返同你本身講嗰個口音相關嘅，因爲你要同返你屋企人溝通呀嘛係咪？噉當然每個學生佢哋學嘅，即係原因都唔一樣啦。如果佢哋嘅原因、想學嘅動力係“我以後想去台山參觀吓、去嗰度玩吓”噉樣，噉當然我就會話：“噉你就要跟我學喇，你就學我呢個”。噉跟住呢你就可以，即係用返，既係比較，即係我哋而家會講嘅一啲，一啲新穎58啲嘅講法囉係。噉所以睇每個人嘅，佢哋學嘅背景啦，同埋動力呀、原因呀噉樣，係。
(So the first thing to do, I think, is to acknowledge this with Toisanese, the way you speak is not wrong, we do speak it that way. Especially if it is a place where your family is from, a place where they live, and they do talk like that. However, in my classroom there’s not much I can do, because I only know one Toisanese, and it is impossible for me to teach everyone twenty different varieties of Toisanese. But I can teach you how to do converse, telling you the differences between the way I speak and the way you speak, how this vowel sound of my Toisanese would change to that vowel of yours. But you do not need to learn my version, because if the reason you learn Cantonese or Toisanese is to communicate with your family, you should learn the one relevant to your accent. It is because you want to communicate with your family at home right? Then of course every student has different reasons to learn the language. If the reason and motivation for learning is "I want to go to Toisan in the future to visit and to play", then of course I would say "You should learn this version from me". Then you can use the relatively more relevant, and novel sayings that we use nowadays. So it depends on the person’s background, motivation, and the reasons.)
Raymond: 嗯，你講呢樣嘢其實我都好有共鳴嘅。噉因爲你話淨係話台山話都可以有咁多版本59…
(This actually resonates a lot with me, what you just said about their being different versions of Toisanese…)
Jade: 係喇冇錯。
(Absolutely right.)
Raymond: （每個）村都有自己嘅講法啦。
(Every village has their own way of saying things.)
Jade: Uh-huh uh-huh.
Raymond: 噉同埋因為即係可能冇咁多嘅譬如媒體呀，或者係一啲教材呀，令到大家即係可以互相去交流，或者教學呢，即係，所以呢個語言呢，唔係好統一嘅。噉但係，呢個當然唔係一個問題啦，噉呀即係咁啱都係早兩日，即係喺另外一個場合亦都有人問我嘅，即係話“我學廣東話呀，但係呢我屋企人嘅講嘅所謂嘅廣東話，其實又同學校教嗰啲有好大出入60…”
(It might also be because there isn’t as much media, for instance, or educational materials, that people could use to communicate with each other or teacher, so the language isn’t unified. Of course, this isn’t necessarily a problem. Just two days ago somewhere else I also had someone say to me, “I am studying Cantonese, but there is a discrepancy between the way my family says stuff and the way we are taught to say things at school…)
Jade: 係呀係呀係呀。
(Yeah, yeah, yeah.)
Raymond: 廣東話嘅範圍咁大嘅，即係你可以想像。嗰個語言嘅多樣性61呢，即係你喺教學嗰度點樣去，即係點樣配合呢？噉所以而家嘅講法，即係你講得好啱嘅，即係唔係話教師、個老師教嗰個版本係唯一標準，或者呢，我哋嗰個內容唔應該淨係嚟自教師嘅。其實學生、同學呢，佢哋其實都可以呢，去有所貢獻62。
(The scope of “Cantonese” is so large, as you can imagine. So how do you address that diversity when teaching, what can you do to complement that? Now the way of putting it is just as you said: it’s not just what the teacher says is the only standard, or that our content should only come from teachers, but that students and classmates can also make their own contributions.)
Jade: 係呀冇錯。
(Absolutely right.)
Raymond: 即係我哋喺生活上面用緊啲乜嘢字呀嗰啲講法噉樣。
(As in the words and sayings that we use in our everyday life.)
Jade: 係呀，可以俾到多啲機會佢哋參與囉。都覺得多謝你即係俾呢個機會我可以探索63吓，原來仲有呢個、呢個、呢個講法喎。噉如果有一個學生噉樣提議64出嚟嘅話，大多數可能性都係仲有其他學生，佢哋通常都會“哎呀！係呀！我屋企人都會噉講㗎！”噉樣。噉其實聽咗都覺得幾開心囉，係呀。
(Yes, you can give them more opportunities to participate. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explore this, as it turns out there is this way of framing it. If one student shares their suggestion like this, in all probability there are other students who might also say, “Wow! My family says this as well!” I am quite happy hearing this.)