#16 Guest Episode: Chaakming Lau, Part 2 (粵語)
This episode features the second part of our interview with Dr. Lau, Chaakming, a long-term researcher and proponent of Cantonese in Hong Kong, his previous projects include words.hk and HamBaangLaang, and now he's also developing various other language resources. Dr Lau is an Assistant Professor at the Department of Linguistics and Modern Language Studies at the Education University of Hong Kong, with a research focus on digital humanities and linguistics. If you did not hear the first part of our discussion, make sure to check out the previous episode.
Links:
Hambaanglaang ETPR lessons : https://hambaanglaang.hk/courses/listening-1/lesson/%e7%ac%ac%e4%b8%80%e5%a0%82-lesson-1/
CrossTalk boardgame 言下之意桌遊：https://wobgames.net/shop/crosstalk-%E8%A8%80%E4%B8%8B%E4%B9%8B%E6%84%8F/
成語動畫廊/Professor Panda Says: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_x-hWg1OC9dUm_is65AJ8wiBynPyf0N3
Vocabulary
1. 口音 hau2 jam1 (N) accent2. 活動 wut6 dong6 (N) activity
3. 比賽 bei2 coi3 (N) competition, contest
4. 難搞 naan4 gaau2 (ADJ) difficult, troublesome, handful
5. 接受 zip3 sau6 (V/ADJ) to accept, acceptable
6. 單一 daan1 jat1 (ADJ) single, homogenous, monotonous
7. 主流 zyu2 lau4 (ADJ) mainstream
8. 假設 gaa2 cit3 (V/N) to assume, assumption
9. 普遍 pou2 pin3 (ADJ) common
10. 測試 ca(a)k1 si3 (N/V) test, to assess
11. 撈亂 lou1 lyun6 (V) to mix up, to confuse with
12. 扣分 kau3 fan1 (VO) to deduct points
13. 主觀 zyu2 gun1 (ADJ) subjective
14. 因素 jan1 sou3 (N) factor
15. 政策 zing3 caak3 (N) policy
16. 原則 jyun4 zak1 (N) principle
17. 指定 zi2 ding6 (V/ADJ) to designate, designated
18. 誇張 kwaa1 zoeng1 (ADJ/V) over-the-top, to exaggerate
19. 借詞 ze3 ci4 (N) loanword
20. 刻意 hak1 ji3 (ADJ/ADV) purposely, on purpose
22. 唔太理 m4 taai3 lei5 (VC) to not care much
23. 熱情 jit6 cing4 (ADJ) passionate
24. 正常 zing3 soeng4 (ADJ) normal
25. 講開 gong2 hoi1 (VP) to speak of (on the topic, having the habit of)
26. 受壓迫 sau6 ngaak3 bik1 (ADJ/V) oppressed, to be oppressed
27. 犀利 sai1 lei6 (ADJ) awesome, impressive
28. 勁過 ging6 gwo3 (ADJ) stronger
29. 好威 hou2 wai1 (ADJ) mighty, powerful
30. 韻腳 wan5 goek3 (N) rhyme
31. 氣勢 hei3 sai3 (N) momentum, intimidation
32. 超勁 ciu1 ging6 (ADJ) super strong, formidable
33. 容許 jung4 heoi2 (V) to allow
34. 左啲 zo2 di1 (ADJ) leftish, left leaning
35. 平等 ping4 dang2 (N/ADJ) equality, equal
36. 權利 kyun4 lei6 (N) rights
37. 性格 sing3 gaak3 (N) personality
38. 身份 san1 fan2 (N) identity
39. 定義 ding6 ji6 (N) definition
40. 好渣 hou2 zaa2 (ADJ) very weak, terrible
41. 鬥叻 dau3 lek1 (V) to compete
42. 推廣 teoi1 gwong2 (V/N) to promote, promotion
43. 製造 zai3 zou6 (V) to produce
44. 自豪 zi6 hou4 (ADJ) proud
45. 心態 sam1 taai3 (N) mentality
46. 科學性 fo1 hok6 sing3 (ADJ) scientific
47. 妄自菲薄 mong5 zi6 fei1 bok6 (EXP) to belittle/undermine/underestimate oneself
48. 龐大 pong4 daai6 (ADJ) huge, massive
49. 撇除 pit3 ceoi4 (V/CONJ) to cast aside, except
50. 價值 gaa3 zik6 (N) value
51. 紀錄 gei2 luk6 (V/N) to record, record
52. 保留 bou2 lau4 (V) to keep, to retain
53. 尾聲 mei5 sing1 (N) the end, close (of an event)
54. 攝咗 sip3 zo2 (VP) inserted
55. 教學法 gaau3 hok6 faat3 (N) pedagogy
56. 指令 zi2 ling6 (N) command
57. 畫面 waa2 min2 (N) scene, screen
58. 途徑 tou4 ging3 (N) path, way
59. 透過 tau3 gwo3 (PREP) through, via
60. 經典 ging1 din2 (N) classic
61. 隊友 deoi6 jau5 (N) teammate
62. 示範 si6 faan6 (V/N) to demonstrate, demonstration
63. 提示 tai4 si6 (N/V) clue, to hint
64. 花(啲)心思 faa1 (di1) sam1 si1 (VO) to give effort/thought
65. 音節 jam1 zit3 (N) syllable
66. 硬性 ngaang6 sing3 (ADJ) rigid, strict
67. 規定 kwai1 ding6 (N) stipulation
68. 硬蹦蹦 ngaang6 baang1 baang1 (ADJ) stiff, unbendable
69. 規則 kwai1 zak1 (N) regulation, rule
70. 討論 tou2 leon6 (V/N) to discuss, discussion
71. 桌面 coek3 min2 (ADJ/N) tabletop; desktop
72. 道具 dou6 geoi6 (N) prop
73. 相反 soeng1 faan2 (ADJ/N) opposite
74. 放大 fong3 daai6 (V) to expand, to magnify
75. 收窄 sau1 zaak3 (V) to narrow down
76. 外甥女 ngoi6 sang1 neoi2 (N) niece, sister’s daughter
77. 投入 tau4 jap6 (ADJ/V) engaged, to devote
78. 輕鬆 hing1 sung1 (ADJ) relaxed
79. 成語 sing4 jyu5 (N) idiom
80. 內容 noi6 jung4 (N) content
ADJ - Adjective
ADV - Adverb
CONJ - Conjunction
EXP - Expression
N - Noun
P - Preposition
V - Verb
VC - Verb complement
VO - Verb object
VP - Verb + Particle
Transcript
Raymond: 呢個禮拜我哋繼續訪問劉擇明博士，人稱“阿擇”嘅佢一直喺香港研究同推廣粵語。之前做過嘅計劃，包括粵典，words.hk，同冚唪唥，hambaanglaang.hk，亦都做緊各種語言資源嘅開發。劉博士而家係香港教育大學語言學及現代語言系助理教授。主要研究數碼人文同語言學。大家都可以聽返上一集劉博士訪問第一部分嘅內容。
Cameron: This week features the conclusion of our discussion with Dr. Lau, Chaakming, a long-term researcher and proponent of Cantonese in Hong Kong, his previous projects include words.hk and hambaanglaang, and now he's also developing various other language resources. Dr Lau is an Assistant Professor at the Department of Linguistics and Modern Language Studies at the Education University of Hong Kong, with a research focus on digital humanities and linguistics.
Cameron: 我覺得對學廣東話嘅學生嚟講，最難嘅方面之一就係廣東話嘅標準。我嘅意思就係香港嘅口音1、同廣州嘅口音、同華僑嘅口音，有啲少少唔同嘅地方。所以你安排你嘅活動2同比賽3嘅時候，你點揀一個標準呢？
(I think that for students studying Cantonese, one of the hardest parts is “standards.” What I mean is that Hong Kong has one accent, Guangzhou has another, and overseas Chinese also have their own, and there are small differences. So when you organize your [Cantonese] activities or competitions, how do you pick a standard?)
Chaakming: 呢一個係一個好難搞4嘅問題，對於例如英文呢一類嘅語言呢，冇太大問題。因爲你講倫敦嘅英文、你講紐約嘅英文，大家覺得係可以接受5。就算係 Texas 可能個口音唔同啲，但係大家都唔會話“你嗰啲唔係英文嚟㗎，你嗰啲係錯嘅英文”， 應該係好少人會噉樣講。噉但係粵語嘅情況唔同。但係呢，佢香港人接觸嘅粵語實在太單一6喇，即係話呢，喺香港你聽到嘅粵語基本上呢就係香港市區嗰一隻同廣州幾乎係一樣嘅粵語。噉於是呢如果你同嗰隻粵語爭少少，講緊係一個 vowel 可能有少少唔同，或者係一個詞語嘅用法，有啲啲唔同，或者係歪咗少少, 大家已經覺得你講嘅嘢有口音，你講嘢唔標準。噉所以呢喺香港做一啲關於 pronunciation , 關於發音嘅嘢嘅時候呢，我哋係冇得揀嘅，我哋係只能夠用香港嗰個主流7接受嘅標準。
(This is a very troublesome issue. In terms of different varieties of English, it’s not a very large problem. If you speak London English or New York English, everyone will think it is acceptable. If it’s Texas, the accent might be a bit different, but people won’t say, “What you’re speaking isn’t English, you have bad English,” perhaps very few people would say that. The situation with Cantonese is different. However, the sort of Cantonese that Hongkongers find acceptable is too homogeneous, in the sense that what you hear in Hong Kong is basically a form of Hong Kong metropolitan Cantonese that seems the same as Guangzhou Cantonese. Now if you differ from that form of Cantonese just a little, using a vowel that might be a little off, or using a word a little differently, or something is a little off, everyone will already think you have an accent, that the way you speak is not standard. So in Hong Kong, in terms of AApronunciation, when we pronounce sounds, we don’t have a choice, we can only use the accepted mainstream standard of Hong Kong.
而呢個標準係非常之 strict 嘅。因爲呢你要整一個唔同年紀嘅人都接受嘅標準呢，基本上即係用老啲嘅人嘅標準。噉我哋嗰個做法呢，冇寫落去嗰個 document 嗰度，但係實際上我哋嘅做法係，我哋假設8大概 50 歲嘅人嘅發音，應該就係社會普遍9接受嘅發音。如果一個 50 歲嘅人接受到你講嘢，噉應該應該你嘅發音呢係OK 嘅冇太大問題嘅。噉如果 70 歲嘅人唔接受嘅話噉點呢？噉我哋就算嘅喇，因爲 70 歲嘅人可能佢哋要求多啲，可能佢哋麻煩啲，噉我哋呢，就用50歲做一個 reference line，然之後呢，我哋就定期呢去睇下大概50歲嘅人，佢哋對發音有咩要求。噉喺香港嘅情況好得意嘅就係 50 歲嘅人呢，係唔分 n，l 嘅，一般嚟講。
(This standard is incredibly strict, as you need to establish a standard accepted by people of different generations, so you basically use a relatively old standard. So the way we do things isn’t written down in that document, but in practice our method is that we assume that the pronunciation of someone around 50 is the pronunciation generally accepted by society. If a 50-year-old accepts how you speak, then your pronunciation should be OK, with no big issues. But what if someone who is 70 doesn’t accept your pronunciation? The way we see it, because someone who is 70 might have more requirements, perhaps they’re more troublesome, so we use 50 years old as a reference line. After that, we systematically look at what people who are roughly 50 years old look for in pronunciation. What’s interesting is that in Hong Kong, people who are about 50, for the most part they don’t differentiate between “n” and “l”.)
即係我哋講懶音嘅時候呢，例如係 nei5 同 lei5 噉係香港嘅主流呢，係唔分嘅。即係 n 同 l 對於大部分人嚟講呢，係同一樣嘅發音。但係最後生嘅人，即係講緊 20 歲噉上下十幾歲嗰啲人呢，因爲佢哋識英文識普通話，其實佢哋嘅耳仔係分到。所以呢你問最後生嗰啲人，可能佢覺得呢，你個 n 或者l錯咗呢，佢就會話你係錯。噉但係因爲老啲嘅人覺得冇問題，噉我哋就會話呢，喺我哋搞嘅測試10入面，如果你啲 n 讀晒做 l，我哋覺得係完全冇問題，其實呢個甚至係一個香港嘅特色嚟嘅嘛。就係喺某啲地方講粵語嘅人呢，就冇咗 n 音嘅喇，廣州都有，廣州都係噉嘅，香港又係噉樣嘅。噉但係有一啲嘢呢，就係後生嘅人接受，但係 50 歲嘅人呢唔接受嘅。
(So when we talk about a “lazy accent,” as in nei5 and lei5, there is no differentiation in mainstream Hong Kong. That is, for most people, “n” and “l” are the same pronunciation. But for younger people, as in people 10-30 years old, because they know how to speak English and Mandarin, their ears do differentiate. So if you ask some young people, perhaps they will think that your “n” or “l” was incorrect, they will say you are wrong. But because older people think it isn’t a problem, what we say in our test is that if you read all the “n”s as “l,” we think it’s absolutely no problem at all, but this is particular to Hong Kong. In some places, Cantonese speakers have lost the “n” sound. Guangzhou has this, it’s also like this, and Hong Kong as well. But there are some things that young people will accept that 50-year-olds won’t.)
例如呢，如果係粵語尾嗰度呢，嗰啲 coda 最尾嗰個部分呢，可以有 m、n、ng、p、t、k 噉幾個位噉樣啦，噉如果將 k 同埋 t 撈亂11咗嘅話呢，即係例如係，sak 同埋 sat 撈亂咗，或者將 n 同 ng 撈亂咗，即 san1 同埋 sang1 撈亂咗嘅話呢，噉我哋呢就會唔俾喇，會扣分12喇。因爲呢一個呢，係老一輩嘅人，50 歲或以上嘅人接受唔到。噉大概嗰個，條分界線係噉樣。但係個別嗰啲詞語嘅發音呢，我哋就好包容。即係話，如果你覺得讀“時間 (gaan3)” 你好想讀佢做 “時間 (gaan1)” 噉個 tone，你覺得係要用某一個讀法，噉呢一啲呢係一啲好主觀13嘅嘢嚟嘅，噉我哋就會接受多過一個發音。
(For instance, in terms of “tails” in Cantonese, the coda at the very end, it could be m, n, ng, p, t, k, those sorts, if you confused a “k” and a “t,” like if you mixed up sak and sat, or you mixed up “n” and “ng,” like san1 and sang1, we won’t excuse that, we will deduct points. That’s because older people, those over 50, they won’t accept it. That’s the rough dividing line for that. But in terms of the pronunciation of individual words, we are fairly forgiving. That is, if you think “time,” si4gaan3, should be read as si4gaan1, that tone [tone 1 vs. tone 3], if you think it should use a particular tone, this is your subjective view, so we will accept more than one pronunciation.)
Raymond: 噉我亦都知道阿擇你都係爸爸啦。噉呢我就好有興趣知道啲小朋友呢，即係佢哋學習語言嗰個過程嘅。噉我最近呢就接觸到，亦都留意到呢，喺家庭裏面呢，即係你點樣去使用個語言，其實係對個小朋友影響差唔多係最大嘅一個因素14之一。噉我想問下阿擇你，你喺屋企譬如你用，因爲而家小朋友接觸嘅語言就好多嘅，即係學校又要學英文、普通話加埋廣東話，甚至學埋其他外語。你有冇一個我哋叫做家庭嘅語言嘅政策15，即係呢，你會有冇啲咩原則16呀，一定指定17喺咩情況下用咩語言噉樣㗎同啲仔女。
(A-Chaak, I also know that you are a father. I am very interested to know about the process through which they study language. I recently came across–I’ve taken note of –how within a household, how you use a language is one of the factors with the biggest impact on a child. What I’d like to ask you, A-Chaak, is what you use at home, because these days kids encounter many languages, like in school they will also study English, Mandarin, and Cantonese, and even other languages. Do you have what we might call a “house language policy,” as in, do you have any specific principles, where you will say under a certain circumstance one must use a particular language with kids?)
Chaakming: 呢個呢香港嘅情況，或者會唔同，即係同北美呀，同英國會唔同。基本上我哋全家屋企都係全粵語嘅，係講緊係，可能有啲人會覺得好誇張18，係除咗借詞19之外啦，其實係完全唔會用英文。噉普通話基本上係完全唔會聽到，係講緊一個詞都唔會聽到。
(As for the situation in Hong Kong, it might be different, as North America and England aren’t the same. Basically, everyone in the family uses Cantonese when speaking, some people might think it’s over the top, because besides loanwords, we won’t use English at all. Mandarin you basically won’t hear either, you won’t even hear a single word of it.)
Raymond: 噉英文呢？你會唔會好刻意20去唔用英文呀？
(What about English? Will you purposely not use English?)
Chaakming: 其實我哋係唔使刻意唔用，因爲我哋最自然嘅溝通呢我哋係冇英文嘅。噉但係有啲咩情況會有英文呢？例如學校有英文功課，噉我哋要一齊做英文功課，噉嗰啲英文嘅句子會係用英文讀啦當然。或者喺屋企有啲古仔書，啲古仔書係寫咗英文嘅喎。噉我係唔係要每一本都譯做廣東話先同佢哋講呢？噉我又唔會。噉我嘅做法就係呢，我會用英文去讀啲字，噉但係講解或者係問問題嘅時候呢，噉我就會用廣東話去做嗰個底。即係話幾時講嘢都好啦，噉我都係用廣東話去做個溝通21語言，但係喺討論啲唔同嘅嘢嘅時候呢，“哦呢個字係 orange 喎， orange 即係乜嘢呀？你會唔會食呀？鍾唔鍾意食呀？” 即係會討論嘅時候呢，噉我就唔介意會有一啲英文嘅單字喺度。噉以前呢，噉屋企有一啲，有 helper 啦有工人啦。噉工人呢有時會同你哋講英文嘅，噉就至於佢哋學英文噉其實我就唔太理22啦，佢哋日後一定有機會學識嘅。
(Actually we don’t have to purposely not use English, as our most natural mode of communication is to not use English. But under what circumstances will we use English? For example, when doing English homework for school, we will do English homework together. Of course we will use English to read English sentences. We also have story books at home that are written in English. So will I translate every single book into Cantonese and then speak it? Of course not. What we do is to use English to read the words, but if there is explanation or when asking questions, we will use Cantonese for that. So whenever I am saying something, I will use Cantonese as the language of communication, but when discussing different things, like “This word is orange, what is orange? Is it something you eat? Do you like eating it?” When discussing this, I don’t mind using a few single English words. In the past we had a helper at home, and she would speak English with you, but I don’t care much whether they study English, they will have plenty of opportunities to study it in the future.)
Cameron: 但係你對 code-switching 有咩睇法呢?因爲我覺得香港廣東話嘅一個特點，就係你可以將啲英文嘅詞語，講一個有廣東話嘅語法嘅句子。譬如話“你今晚 O 唔 OT 呀？”你覺得呢個 OT 係唔係可以接受嘅？
(But what’s your view on code-switching? Because I think that one of the special characteristics of Hong Kong Cantonese is that you can take English words and use them in a sentence with Cantonese grammar. For example, “Do you have to work overtime tonight?” [OT stands for overtime] Do you think that use of “OT” is acceptable?
Chaakming：哦，呢個睇下，睇下你覺得嗰個詞係唔係廣東話。噉例如 OT，噉我就當佢完全係一個粵語詞，當佢廣東話嘅詞語。噉仲有啲乜嘢，例如“幫我 keep 住啲嘢”呀，“我 take 咗一個 course”呀，噉呢啲呢我哋已經係完全粵語化，噉我就唔會太理。噉但係呢啲係詞嘅單位，噉我唔會大啲，即係例如，我唔會話係， “Give me that one”, 即係我就唔會噉樣，即係成個 clause 呢，我就唔會。噉我最多就係，我會接受到一個詞，或者係一個 phrase，噉我覺得可以。
(Well, looking at this, it depends on whether you think this word is Cantonese or not. For instance, with OT, I think it is a fully Cantonese word. But what else is there, like “Help me save [keep] some things,” “I took [take + 咗 → past tense] a course,” I think these have been fully “Cantonese-ified,” so I won’t mind that much. But this is on the level of words, so I won’t go for the bigger ones, so I won’t say, “Give me that one.” We won’t be like that, with a full clause, I won’t. At the most, I’ll accept a single word or a single phrase, I think that’s okay.)
Raymond: 好，Cameron 你有冇其他問題想問呢？
(Good. Cameron, do you have other questions you’d like to ask?)
Cameron：有嘅。所以你係個廣東話嘅母語者啦。都係個好熱情23推行廣東話嘅教授呀，噉你而家對廣東話嘅睇法，同你細佬仔嗰陣時嘅睇法有冇唔同呀？
(I do. So you are a native speaker of Cantonese. You also passionately promote the language and are a professor. Is your current attitude toward Cantonese any different from what it was as a child?)
Chaakming：我覺得主要就，首先細路仔嘅時候啦，我成長嘅年代，廣東話係個 default 嚟嘅，即係大家係冇諗過係有任何機會係唔用廣東話。即係直頭係其他語言好似唔存在噉樣，即係你會覺得“嘩，嗰個人咁怪嘅講英文嘅，佢傻嘅佢做乜講英文呀。”即係我哋會知道英文呢樣嘢，我哋會聽過有普通話呢樣嘢，但係日常生活入邊係幾乎我係冇機會接觸普通話，冇機會接觸英文呀、日文韓文係冇，完全冇。噉所以細個覺得呢，廣東話係正常嘢，就係正常嘅人就係講廣東話嘅。講其他話嘅都唔正常24㗎佢地，佢哋講其他話嘅噉樣。噉有好有唔好啦，當然就即係因爲我屋企係講開25廣東話嘅人，就覺得好正常，我估如果係屋企過其他話嘅，如果屋企係講福建話、潮州話呀、英文、普通話嘅人，佢哋就會覺得自己係一個好受壓迫26嘅 minority 嚟嘅。
(I think that most importantly, back when I was a kid, for my generation, Cantonese was the default, in the sense that no one ever thought there would be an instance when one wouldn’t use Cantonese. It was as if there was absolutely no other language in existence. You would think, “Wow, that person is so strange for speaking English, is he a fool, what’s he doing speaking English?” We knew about English and had heard about Mandarin, but in daily life we had practically no chance to encounter Mandarin, no chance to encounter English, not Japanese or Korean, none at all. So when I was young, I thought that Cantonese was normal and that regular people would speak Cantonese. Speakers of everything else were abnormal, speaking other languages. There are goods and bads, and of course given that my family members all spoke Cantonese, I thought it was normal, and I assumed that for households that spoke something else, if they spoke Fujianese Teochew, English, Mandarin, etc. at home, that they would think of themselves as an oppressed minority group.)
噉但係大個咗呢，其實係會覺得廣東話好似好犀利27噉樣。噉可能係教育，亦都可能係我睇嘅書。噉就會覺得廣東話係勁過28其他人，因爲細個啲中文老師會係噉同你講“喂廣東話係好犀利㗎，好多個 tone呀，好多聲調啦，好難學㗎，個個都學唔識㗎。”又話 “讀唐書好威29㗎，個韻腳30好犀利㗎。”噉然之後呢，然之後周圍啲朋友就話“廣東話講粗口好勁㗎，好有氣勢31㗎。”噉你聽咗好多之後你就會覺得，嘩，廣東話超勁32，即係贏晒全世界嘅，全世界最犀利就係廣東話喇。噉直至到呢學語言學，然後語言學呢係一個，即係容許33我噉講，係一個比較，係一個左啲34嘅學科嚟嘅。係即係講平等35呀，講所有嘢都一樣呀，所有人所有語言都有同樣嘅權利36呀。
(But once I grew up, I thought of Cantonese as pretty amazing. Perhaps it was due to education, or maybe it was the books that I read, but I thought that Cantonese was stronger than other people, because when I was little, my Chinese teacher would say, “Cantonese is amazing, it has many tones [in this case, the entering tones], and it has many tone contours, it’s difficult to study, no one can learn it.” They also said, “[Using Cantonese to] reading Tang Dynasty literature is very powerful, the rhymes are great.” [Because some of these rhymes are not preserved when read in Mandarin, etc.] Later on, my friends around me would say, “Cursing in Cantonese is great, it’s very intimidating.” So after hearing a lot of this you would think, wow, Cantonese is beyond amazing, it beats the entire world, the most amazing [language] in the entire world is Cantonese. Now in terms of studying linguistics, if you’ll allow me to say, is a relatively, it’s a rather left-leaning discipline. It talks about equality, how all things are equal, how all people and languages have equal rights.)
噉慢慢呢亦都令到我嘅性格37呢，就會開始覺得，其實廣東話都係一隻語言啫，其實係冇乜特別嘅喎。然之後我就開始呢覺得，尤其係學多咗語言學之後，開始就覺得，我哋鍾意廣東話呢，唔係因爲廣東話好叻，唔係因爲廣東話好犀利，而係因爲呢一樣嘢係代表咗我哋嘅身份38，代表咗我哋嘅歷史，代表咗我哋嘅… 代表咗我哋。即係呢個係我哋嘅定義39嚟嘅，就係我就係講呢隻語言嘅人喇噉。噉所以有咗呢個諗法之後呢，我就開始唔再理廣東話係唔係犀利，其實可能廣東話喺有啲嘢度好渣40㗎。廣東話你有好多關於 logic 嘅詞呢冇乜嘅喎其實。噉好多都係借西方嘅嘢嘅喎。
(Now this also began to slowly affect my personality, as I began to think that Cantonese is also just a language, there’s nothing special about it. Then I began to think that, especially after studying many languages, I started to think that we like Cantonese not so much because it is brilliant or amazing, but because this sort of thing represented our identity, represented our history, represented our… represented us. That is, it’s our definition, those of us who speak this language. So after having this thought, I started to not care whether or not Cantonese was impressive, as there might be some aspects in which it’s bad. In fact, Cantonese doesn’t have many words relating to logic, and many are borrowed from the West.)
噉你廣東話係咪好多 preposition 呢？又唔係喎，廣東話係咪好多 case 呀，同俄文比又唔係喎，俄文有七個喎，噉廣東話有幾多個呀？噉然之後呢，噉樣比較之後就會覺得，好，我哋嘅其實係唔使同人哋鬥叻41嘅。總之呢廣東話係我自己嘅嘢。噉所以呢，我就會繼續用。噉鍾意學嘅人呢，我就會向佢去推廣42。而犀利嘅嘢係，講廣東話嘅人製造43幾多文化嘅嘢出嚟，即係我哋去作幾多歌，寫幾多書，整幾多電影出嚟。噉呢一啲就係我哋應該自豪44嘅嘢。噉我諗我心態45都變咗幾多。
(So does Cantonese have a lot of prepositions? No, does it have many cases? Compared to Russian it doesn’t, Russian has seven, how many does Cantonese have? But after doing this sort of comparison, I realized, alright, we don’t need to compete with people. Ultimately, Cantonese is ours, so I will continue to use it. And when it comes to people who like to study it, I will promote Cantonese. But the impressive stuff is the various cultural things that Cantonese speakers have produced, like they have made many songs, they’ve written a lot of books, they’ve filmed a lot of movies. This is what we should be proud of. So I think my mentality has changed a lot.)
Raymond: 嗯，係咯，我都好認同你嘅講法啦，即係我諗我亦都係呢，即係讀語言學之後會睇呢件事除咗你自己比較主觀嘅睇法之外，噉你亦都接觸到，即係比較科學性46去睇語言呢件事呢，噉我亦都有諗到好多人以前會覺得，即係有少少所謂妄自菲薄47噉樣。即係話，“呢個語言有咩用呀，賺到幾多錢呀”或者噉樣。噉但係你淨係睇呢個粵語個語言人口呀，即係嗰個咁龐大48語言人口已經知道，你撇除49咗經濟價值50，你淨係睇，咁多人去用緊嘅語言，噉就自然我哋需要去爲呢件，呢樣嘢去做好多嘢啦。你話紀錄51又好，噉為咗將來教育下一代又好。我自己就噉睇啦。
(Mmm, yes, I really agree with the way you put it, in the sense that after studying linguistics, aside from the subjective way of looking at things that you mentioned, you will also run into some more scientific ways of looking at language. I also have thought that many people have previously underestimated their situation a bit, saying, “What use is this language? How much money can it make me?” or something like that. Now if you simply look at the population of Cantonese speakers, this huge population of Cantonese speakers, as we already know, if you cast aside the economic value and just look at how many people are using this language, then it becomes natural that we would need it [Cantonese] for this, to go do so many things, so whether you want to record the language, or to help educate the next generation. That’s how I see things, personally.)
Chaakming：係㗎，噉我所以我都會覺得係，其實就算係得一條村嘅人講你嘅語言都好，噉嗰隻語言係你嘅嘛，噉就算幾少人講，其實都值得去做啲嘢嘅。保留52又好，推廣都好。
(Yeah, I also think that even if a village of people speaks your language, that’s great, that’s your language, even if there are so few speakers, it’s still worth doing things, whether it means preserving or promoting it.)
Raymond:好，噉，係啦我哋嘅節目通常尾聲53啦，就會請嘉賓啦，同埋我哋自己都分享一個我哋想介紹嘅，分享嘅一個學習嘅粵語學習嘅資源嘅。噉不如我哋就等我哋嘉賓同我哋講吓先啦，阿擇你有啲咩想同我哋分享呢？
(Right, so at the end of our program we usually ask the guest, as well as ourselves, to share some study materials for Cantonese. So how about we have our guest share with us first, A-Chaak, is there anything you’d like to share?)
Chaakming：好，有一啲我頭先攝咗54喺頭先嘅答案嗰度講咗啲。噉我介紹多一個頭先冇講嘅。噉就係呢冚唪唥計劃嗰度呢，其實整咗一個叫做 ETPR 嘅一個 YouTube。噉 TPR就係一個教學法55啦，叫做 total physical response。就係有一個 instructor，佢係噉俾指令56你，例如叫你坐低、起身、行、攞筆、攞橙、去門口、掂噉呢啲噉樣嘅指示。透過聽指示去學識一啲最基本，最緊要嘅詞語。噉但係而家有 Covid 又就難啲上到呢啲見到面嘅堂，噉於是呢我哋呢就整咗一個 e-version，就係呢係用 YouTube 嘅短片嘅形式。
(Yes, there are some things that I earlier stuck into my answers that I’ve spoken about. I’ll introduce another, which is the Hambaanglaang project, it’s on YouTube, and it’s what’s called an “ETPR.” So “TPR” is a pedagogical method, or “total physical response,” where an instructor gives you commands, like to sit down, stand up, walk, pick up a pen, pick up a chair, go to the door, these sorts of directions. So through listening to commands you learn the most fundamental, most important vocabulary. But now with COVID it’s hard to go to in-person class, so we made an e-version, using the short video form on YouTube.)
噉個instructor 就唔需要係真人喇，嗰個 instructor 就係我哋做好咗嘅錄音，再加畫面，噉大家睇住個畫面57聽著錄音，噉就可以學到最基本嘅廣東話，我諗聽呢個 podcast 嘅人就冇需要嘅，但係如果你你哋身邊有朋友係想由零開始學，噉可以試一次呢一個我哋而家有八個 lessons，其實加埋我諗四個禮拜一定可以學得完。噉你就會學到幾百個，幾百個係好有用嘅詞語。噉應該係好難會唔記得嘅，應該好有效嘅一個方法。
(So the instructor doesn’t need to be a real person, the instructor is a recording that we already made and added illustrations to, so if everyone looks at the pictures and listens to the recording, they can learn some basic Cantonese. I think people listening to this podcast might not need it, but if there are friends around you who are starting from zero, you can try it out, we have eight lessons now, and I think they can be completed in four weeks. So you’ll learn a few hundred very useful vocabulary words. It’s hard not to remember them, it’s a very effective method.)
Raymond: 如果你嗰度去到有幾百個，我諗我哋嘅聽衆呢，好多都會覺得好有用嘅講真。即係我諗佢哋亦都會同身邊人去分享啦。噉如果你唔介意呢，噉我就分享一個呢，我最近發現一個幾有趣嘅，其實都唔可以話係咩正式嘅一個咩教材呀，或者真正嘅資源，不過呢，我覺得係一個好嘅工具或者方法呢，可能提高大家學廣東話，甚至其他語言呢嘅一個途徑58呀。噉我自己呢，就好鍾意透過59遊戲嘅方式呢，去學或者去教，一個語言嘅。噉我之前喺美國居住嘅時候呢，我就成日去睇嗰啲電視遊戲節目呀。噉特別呢，同嗰啲同語言有關嗰啲我係特別有興趣去睇。
(If there are a few hundred vocab terms in there, I think there are many of our listeners who will find it really useful, in that they’ll share it with those around them. If you don’t mind, I’ll share something now. I recently found a very interesting, though not necessarily an orthodox teaching material, or a proper resource, but I think that it is a useful tool, and perhaps it’s a way of improving everyone’s Cantonese, even other languages, too. I personally enjoy studying or teaching languages through games. Back when I lived in America, I always watched game shows, I was especially interested in watching those related to language.)
噉我就會介紹一個啦，噉一個呢，佢就叫做 Password，噉其實係一個好…我諗 Cameron 應該會知嘅，即係一個比較經典60嘅遊戲節目，好簡單就係呢，譬如我有一個字啦，一個係…佢呢就係個答案嚟嘅。噉我嘅目的呢，就要令到我嘅隊友61呢，可以講到呢個答案出嚟，但係我就當然唔可以話俾佢聽呢個係咩字啦。噉我嘅提示呢，就淨係可以用一個字嘅。噉就係每一輪我淨係可以俾一個字俾佢估嘅。噉或者我可以好簡單，舉一個例啦，甚至我哋 3 個人可以示範62一下啦。假設我嘅嗰個答案啦，係咖喱魚蛋。噉，如果阿 Cameron 同阿擇，你會俾一個點樣嘅提示63令到，即係一個人會講出咖喱魚蛋呢個字呀？
(So I’ll introduce one called “Password,” it’s a very… I think Cameron should know, it’s a rather classic game show. It’s very simple. For example, I have a word that’s the answer, and my goal is to get my teammate to guess the answer, but of course I can’t tell them what the word is. So my clues only use a single word, and each round I can only give a single word for them to guess. Or I could simply give an example, the three of us can model the game. So imagine our answer is “curry fish ball,” Cameron and A-Chaak, what sort of clue will you give to get someone to say “curry fish ball?)
Cameron/Chaakming：嗯…
(Hmmm…)
Raymond: 雖然話一個字但係你都要花啲心思64係咪？
(Although it’s just one word, you still have to give it a bit of thought, right?)
Chaakming：首先我會諗到，因爲嘢食呀嘛，噉我係，我可以講幾多個音節65呀？
(My first thought is, because this is food, how many syllables can I use?)
Raymond: 係喇，呢個又係呢個語言，唔同嘅語言嗰個分別啦。噉我，總之你係一個詞語啦，其實都冇好硬性66規定67嘅。即係我哋玩遊戲，我又唔想定到好硬蹦蹦68嗰啲規則69。噉總之一個詞語啦。
(Yes, this is something about this language that is different from others. I would say, ultimately, that you can use one word, but there isn’t really a strict rule. We’re just playing a game, I don’t want to establish iron-clad rules. So in the end, one word.)
Chaakming：噉我會講相關嘅… 魷魚。
(So the related thing I will say is… squid.)
Raymond: 魷魚，噉但係，仲有喎，噉因爲咖喱魚蛋，嗰個魚字你就唔可以講嘅。即係你個答案唔可以有個魚字。
(Squid, but that still, because the phrase is “curry fish ball,” you can’t use the character “fish” [魚, which also appears in squid, 魷魚 ]。
Chaakming：係喎。
(Oh, right)
Raymond:我就係同我啲小朋友玩嘅時候呢，會討論70呢啲嘢，噉其實都幾有趣。噉你唔諗到另外一個，你會俾另外一個提示俾咩呀？
(When I play with different kids, they will discuss this issue, it’s quite interesting. So if you can’t think of another, what would you give as another clue?)
Chaakming：蘿蔔呀。
(Radish.)
Raymond：哦，蘿蔔呀，都幾好喎呢個提示。Cameron呢？
(Oh, radish, that’s a good clue. Cameron?)
Cameron：都係嘢食。嗯… 街市，街市小食。
(Also foodstuffs. Uh… wet market, wet market snack.)
Raymond：街市？係喇，噉就係噉樣玩落去啦。通常第一輪未必即刻估到嘅。噉呀，但係叻個啲可能你就好少嘅提示就估到。噉個原理就係噉樣嘅。噉點解我提起呢個遊戲呢？因爲我最近呢，去書店行書店呀，噉我亦都同時我鍾意玩嗰啲叫做桌面71遊戲，或者紙板遊戲嗰啲 board games 呢，噉留意到有一個叫 Crosstalk 嘅，本來係英文版嘅，噉而家呢就，佢原來有出咗中文版。噉佢嗰個玩法基本上就係噉樣嘅。但係佢仲多咗啲道具72啦，其實我講真，我哋玩呢個遊戲，我哋都唔需要要有道具係咪？
(Wet market? Okay, so that’s how you keep playing. Usually it might not be guessed right away after one round, but if you’re a bit more clever you might guess it in fewer clues. So that’s it in principle. Now why did I bring up this game? Because recently, I went to a bookstore, as I also like to play boardgames, and I noticed a game called Crosstalk. It’s originally English, but they also released a Chinese version. Now the way to play it is essentially this [like Password], but it also has game pieces. To be frank, when we play this game, we don’t actually need game pieces, right?)
噉我哋頭先噉樣都可以玩到。噉但係呢，如果同小朋友玩，有埋啲道具呢，譬如你第一輪估唔到呢，你仲可以加個提示，噉佢有一個板呢，上面可以話你揀“呢個係相反73嘅”，“ 將個範圍放大74啲或者收窄75啲”噉令到佢更加容易估。噉我亦都試過同我屋企有兩個外甥女76同佢哋玩。噉佢哋都係學緊講廣東話，噉都玩得非常之投入77。噉所以呢個係我介紹就係其中一個嘅遊戲啦，噉可以…我覺得都對個學呢個粵語幾有用。Cameron 呢你有咩想分享呀？
(We can play it as we just did, but if you play it with kids and you have the pieces, if you don’t guess the word in a round, you can add a clue, and there is a board, and on it you can say that you are choosing to say the opposite, or expanding the scope, or making it narrower, making it easier for people to guess. I tried playing with my two nieces, who are both studying Cantonese, and they got really into the game. So this is one of the games that I want to introduce, and I think that it can also be useful for students. Cameron, do you have something that you would like to share?)
Cameron: 有呀，我想分享嘅就係，YouTube 上面嘅成語卡通。呢啲卡通係一個好輕鬆78學粵語嘅方法，因爲有個成語故事同意思同例子。所以可以幫你學點用呢啲文學啲嘅詞語。另一個優點就係小朋友同大人都應該鍾意呢啲卡通，所以你可以一齊學。噉有好多選擇，我自己就隨便睇就係 YouTube。有粵語成語卡通，噉有新啲嘅，都有 80 年代嘅。所以你就可以隨便睇下，我覺得都值得睇呀。
(I do, what I want to share is 4-character idiom [sing4jyu5] cartoons on YouTube. These cartoons are a really relaxed way of studying Cantonese, as they have the idiom story, its meaning, and example uses, so it can really help students with this vocabulary. Another advantage is that both kids and adults should enjoy these cartoons, so you can study together. There are a lot of choices, I just watch them as I please on YouTube. There are Cantonese 4-character idiom cartoons [as opposed to Mandarin versions], some are newer, some are from the 80s. So you can just watch them as you want, I think they’re worth checking out.)
Chaakming：我哋細個學成語呢，有個電視節目叫做了「成語79動畫廊」，唔知冇睇過。噉而家有好多新嘅，但係成語動畫廊呢，係一個 classic 都係取代唔到，我哋好鍾意。
(When we were little, there was a television program called “Professor Pandar Says,” I don’t know if you’ve seen it. There are a lot of new ones now, but Professor Panda Says is an irreplaceable classico, we really like it.)
Raymond:係呀，嗰個係一個經典呢。噉同埋呢，好多時呢啲教成語或者學成語呢啲嘅內容80呢，有陣時我哋未必淨係學到個個成語，而係你睇佢點樣解釋，即係佢呢個成語點樣用呀，或者佢嘅故事呢，我覺得嗰個部分呢，亦都係幫到我哋嗰個語言好多。係啦噉呀，但係呢我睇時間都夜啦，噉都好多謝啦，噉阿擇啦，劉教授，噉同我哋分享咁多佢嘅心得呀，同埋一啲好重要嘅資源呀噉樣。好，再次多謝你，我哋希望再有機會可以再繼續同你去交流。
(Yeah, that is a classic. Also, many times when we teach students about idioms or this content, we won’t just necessarily study the idiom, but rather we will look at how to explain it and how to use it, or its story. I think that portion is also helpful for making our language better. Well, I see that it is getting late, so a big thanks to A-Chaak, Professor Lau, for sharing your experiences with us, as well as these important materials. Good, so I’d like to thank you one more time, and I hope we have more opportunities to continue communicating with you in the future.)
Chaakming：好啦，我哋下次再傾過。
(Good, until we chat next time.)
Raymond:多謝晒。
(Thank you very much!)
Cameron:多謝。
(Thank you!)