#15 Guest Episode: Chaakming Lau, Part 1 (粵語)
This episode features the first part of our interview with Dr. Lau, Chaakming, a long-term researcher and proponent of Cantonese in Hong Kong, his previous projects include words.hk and HamBaangLaang, and now he's also developing various other language resources. Dr Lau is an Assistant Professor at the Department of Linguistics and Modern Language Studies at the Education University of Hong Kong, with a research focus on digital humanities and linguistics. Make sure to also tune in next week for the second part of our discussion.
Vocabulary1.
1. 推廣 teoi1 gwong2 (V/N) to promote, promotion
2. 研究 jin4 gau3 (N/V) research, to do research
3. 計劃 gai3 waak6 (N/V) plan / to plan
4. 項目 hong6 muk6 (N) project
5. 起步 hei2 bou6 (VO/ADJ) to take first step, initial
6. 索性 sok3 sing3 (ADV) might as well, just directly
7. 結構 git3 kau3 (N) structure
8. 重點 zung6 dim2 (N) key point
9. 海外 hoi2 ngoi6 (ADJ/ADV) overseas
11. 長大 zoeng2 daai6 (V/N) to grow up, growth
13. 後代 hau6 doi6 (N) offspring, descendent
14. 基礎 gei1 co2 (N) basis, foundation
15. 障礙 zoeng3 ngoi6 (N) obstacle
16. 認字 jing6 zi6 (N) word recognition
17. 本身 bun2 san1 (PRON) (in) itself
18. 少數族裔 siu2 sou3 zuk6 jeoi6 (N) ethnic minority
19. 程度 cing4 dou6 (N) level, degree, extent
20. 輔助 fu6 zo6 (ADJ/N) auxiliary, assistance
21. (一)棟 jat1 dung6 (QUAN) (a) column (of)
22. 低 B dai1 bi1 (ADJ) childish (comes from “no brain / low budget”)
23. 接軌 zip3 gwai2 (VO) get in line with
24. 遇過 jyu6 gwo3 (V) to encounter, to come across
25. 類似 leoi6 ci5 (ADJ) similar
26. 書面語 syu1 min2 jyu5 (N) written language
27. 母語者 mou5 jyu5 ze2 (N) native speaker
28. 罕見 hon2 gin3 (ADJ) rare
29. 誘惑 jau5 waak6 (ADJ/V/N) tempting, to tempt, temptation
30. 直接 zik6 zip3 (ADV/ADJ) directly, direct
31. 困難 kwan3 naan4 (N) difficulty
32. 由頭 jau4 tau4 (ADV) from the beginning
33. (一)批 jat1 pai1 (QUAN) (a) batch/group (of)
34. 根據 gan1 geoi3 (ADV/N) according to, basis
35. 底 dai2 (N) base, foundation
36. 豐富 fung1 fu3 (ADJ) abundant, rich
37. 闊 fut3 (ADJ) wide
38. 虛構 heoi1 kau3 (ADJ) fictitious, imaginary
39. 童話 tung4 waa2 (N) children story, fairy tale
40. 詞彙 ci4 wui6 (N) vocabulary
41. 實際 sat6 zai3 (ADJ) practical, realistic
42. 原理 jyun4 lei5 (N) principle
43. 事物 si6 mat6 (N) thing, object
44. 細路（仔） sai3 lou6 (zai2) (N) children, kid
45. 好彩 hou2 coi2 (N) fortunate, lucky
46. 基金 gei1 gam1 (N) fund
47. 資助 zi1 zo6 (V/N) to subsidize, funding
48. 圍頭話 wai4 tau4 waa2 (N) Weitou dialect/variety
49. 程式 cing4 sik1 (N) app, (computer) program
50. 字咭 zi6 kaat1 (N) flash card
51. 正常 zing3 soeng4 (ADJ) normal
52. 樽頸 zeon1 geng2 (N) bottleneck
53. 溫書 wan1 syu1 (VO) to review, to brush up
54. 練習 lin6 zaap6 (V/N) to practice, practice
55. 廣告 gwong2 gou3 (N) advertisement, commercial
56. 好奇 hou3 kei4 (ADJ/N) curious, curiosity
57. 自信 zi6 seon3 (ADJ) self-confident
58. 夠膽 gau3 daam2 (ADJ) bold enough
59. 核突 wat6 dat6 (ADJ) ugly
60. 轉台 zyun3 toi4 (VO) to switch channel
61. 包容 baau1 jung4 (V/ADJ) to tolerate, tolerant
62. 錯誤 co3 ng6 (N) mistake
63. 講歪 gong2 me2 (VC) speak inaccurately
64. 對象 deoi3 zoeng6 (N) partner
ADJ - Adjective
ADV - Adverb
N - Noun
QUAN - Quantifier, measure word
V - Verb
VC - Verb complement
VO - Verb object
Raymond: 今集係我哋訪問劉擇明博士嘅第一部分。人稱“阿擇”嘅佢一直喺香港研究同推廣粵語。之前做過嘅計劃，包括粵典，words.hk，同冚唪唥，hambaanglaang.hk，亦都做緊各種語言資源嘅開發。劉博士而家係香港教育大學語言學及現代語言系助理教授，主要研究數碼人文同語言學。大家記得下個禮拜返嚟聽埋第二部分喇。
Cameron: This episode features the first part of our interview with Dr. Lau, Chaakming, a long-term researcher and proponent of Cantonese in Hong Kong, his previous projects include words.hk and hambaanglaang, and now he's also developing various other language resources. Dr Lau is an Assistant Professor at the Department of Linguistics and Modern Language Studies at the Education University of Hong Kong, with a research focus on digital humanities and linguistics. Make sure to also tune in next week for the second part of our discussion.
Raymond: 好，我哋喺度啦，即係非常歡迎劉擇明教授。噉我哋通常都亦都稱呼佢做“阿擇”嘅。我哋好榮幸，今日可以同你傾下偈啦，噉呀，因爲我哋都知道呢，即係你喺無論係推廣1粵語呀、喺粵語嘅教學呀、粵語嘅研究2呀，噉樣呢，都十分之好有經驗啦，噉同埋亦都好有影響力嘅，可以噉講。所以呢今日我哋都想藉呢個機會，即係認識你多啲，噉同埋你都會同我哋分享好多啦，即係你而家做緊嘅好多嘅，點講呀，即係好多嘅計劃3，項目4進行中係咪？不過當然啦，我哋開始，等你不如你自我介紹一下，你點樣會去介紹一下自己嘅背景呢？
(Well, we give a big welcome to Professor Lau Chaakming. We usually also call him “A-Chaak.” We’re very honored to be able to speak with him, as we know no matter whether it’s through promoting Cantonese , teaching Cantonese, or researching Cantonese, you have a lot of experience, and you’re also quite influential, one could say. So today we want to take this opportunity to get to know you a bit more and have you share more with us, as you are in the process of doing–how to put it–many plans, projects–corect? Of course, let’s start, but why don’t we have you introduce yourself first, how would you introduce your background?)
Chaakming：好呀好呀，多謝大家嘅邀請先。首先其實我都係啱啱起步5啫，噉就開始做幾個唔同嘅項目。噉幾年前呢，大概係2014，2014年嗰陣呢噉我就同一班朋友一齊就開始咗一個叫做粵典嘅項目。噉粵典個網址係words.hk，words.hk。噉係一個粵語嘅詞典嚟嘅。噉就開始咗粵語詞典之後就發現仲有好多嘢可以做，噉於是就一路就，首先就係我自己開始去咗教粵語啦，去教廣東話啦，然之後後尾就索性6不如認真做研究喇。跟住呢我就開始咗我嘅讀 Phd，讀博士嘅旅程。然之後而家呢就係喺香港教育大學嗰度做粵語研究嘅。噉就除咗粵語本身即係嗰啲語法呀，結構7呀呢啲研究之外呢，我嘅重點8做嘅嘢呢，其實就係做一啲叫做 digital humanities 嘅 project。噉就希望用電子嘅方式啦，將粵語嘅學習啦，粵語嘅運用啦，可以越整越簡單，方便到大家去學廣東話同埋研究廣東話。
(Wonderful, wonderful. First, thank you all for inviting me. To start things off, however, I am simply someone who just set things in motion, that is, I started a few different projects. A few years ago, probably around 2014, in 2014 I started a project with some friends called “jyut6din2.” The website for jyut6din2 is words.hk, and words.hk is a Cantonese dictionary. After starting words.hk, I discovered there were yet more things that I could do, so all along the way, I first started teaching Cantonese, and then after that I thought I might as well go and do serious research. Then I started studying for my PhD, my doctoral journey. And then now I am doing Cantonese research at the Education University of Hong Kong. Besides Cantonese itself– its grammar, its structures– my focus is on digital humanities projects. I want to use electronic methods to make the study and use of Cantonese more orderly and simple, convenient for everyone to study and research.)
Raymond: 噉我都知道阿擇你都有接觸唔同類型嘅，或者唔同背景嘅粵語學習者啦，噉呀，例如譬如以我嘅學生為例啦，噉我哋有好多呢就喺海外9，可能係海外出世10呀，或者係海外長大11呀嘅一啲移民12嘅後代13呀。噉佢哋呢，好多時想學返廣東話呢，噉佢哋都會有啲都會同我哋講話，即係呀，有啲冇乜頭緒，又唔知點樣開始，因爲佢哋可能都有少少基礎14，噉但係可能對佢哋嚟講最大障礙15就係認字16啦，佢哋唔識漢字啦。噉但係另外呢，亦都有唔同嘅背景嘅學生啦，即係有啲係本身17已經識中文嘅但係佢哋講普通話呀，或者講其它嘅語言方言等。噉我又知道阿擇你喺香港亦都有接觸呢度呢，即係香港我哋所謂嘅少數族裔18，噉佢哋對於嗰個粵語嘅需要、需求，亦都唔一樣嘅。你可唔可以分享一下呢，即係對於唔同嘅呢啲背景嘅粵語學習者呢，即係佢哋喺教材上面其實係咪真係有好大唔同嘅可以俾到佢哋學習嘅材料呀？
(I also know that you, A-Chaak, you’ve encountered Cantonese students of various types or different backgrounds. For example, take my students, we have many overseas [from Hong Kong], perhaps they were born there or are the children of immigrants who grew up there. Much of the time, they want to go back to studying Cantonese, and there are some things they say to us, such as they don’t have an organized way of going about it, or they don’t know where to start, as they have a little bit of a foundation, but perhaps the biggest barrier to them is that they can’t read Chinese characters. Another issue, as there are also students of different backgrounds, is that they already know Chinese [writing] but they speak Mandarin, or they speak another topolect. Now, A-Chaak, I know you have run into this in Hong Kong, Hong Kong’s so-called ethnic minorities, when it comes to their needs and requirements, they’re also different. Can you share a bit about what Cantonese students of different backgrounds require, like in terms of teaching materials–is there a huge difference in terms of the materials you can give them?)
Chaakming：而家呢好多教材就分咗兩大類嘅。一大類呢，就係好多漢字，好多中文字，主要係透過用學習者嘅中文背景去令到佢哋將自己嘅母語，可能係普通話, 轉做一啲啱嘅廣東話。噉呢一類嘅教材非常之多，而個程度19亦都係可以去到深好多嘅，去到一啲複雜啲嘅交流。另外一啲呢就係俾真正嘅零基礎 absolute beginner 去學廣東話。噉嗰邊嗰啲呢，就未必有漢字，或者漢字其實呢係輔助20嘅啫，主要係用拼音去教廣東話嘅。噉嗰邊嗰啲教材其實我覺得對發音嘅學習係好啲，但係嗰邊嘅教材呢就少好多。講緊係其實所有，你將所有用粵拼嘅教材擺埋一齊，其實就係一棟21，即係可能就係一部電腦咁高，可能係 20 本噉上下。
(These days many teaching materials can be divided into two types. One type has a lot of Chinese characters, and principally through using students’ Chinese language background allows them to use their mother tongue, perhaps Mandarin, to shift into appropriate Cantonese. There is a lot of this sort of material, and there is a great degree of depth, reaching into more complex communication. The other type of material is for foreigners with no foundation, absolute beginners studying Cantonese. This type might not have Chinese characters, or the Chinese characters are only there as an auxiliary feature, as the materials mainly use romanization to teach Cantonese. I actually think this type of material is good for practicing pronunciation, but there are fewer of this sort of material. Regarding all the material of this sort, if you take all the books that use romanization and stack them together in one column, perhaps they are only as tall as a computer, there are maybe only about 20 books or so.)
噉所以就選擇好少，噉就非常之大嘅發展空間嘅呢一方面。噉就我覺得如果你叫一啲本身識中文字嘅人用呢一批教材嘅話呢，佢哋覺得好悶嘅。因爲入邊教嗰啲嘢呢，會俾人話係好低 B22嘅。即係話“喂點解我又要學多一次一二三四五六七八九十呀”，然之後佢哋就本身識漢字嘅即係講緊係講普通話嘅人，講日文嘅人，同埋小部分講韓文嘅人，佢哋就覺得太簡單，跟住佢哋好快就會覺得“唔用教科書啦，我直接去同朋友傾偈去學啦”噉樣。所以我覺得係，兩邊係需要，要 converge 就需要接軌23返呀，如果唔係呢就啲識漢字嘅人呢，發音就唔好，跟住用粵拼，用拼音去學嗰啲人呢，就學到基礎學到 A1 level，跟住就冇再冇一啲更加好嘅教科書。我估 Cameron 係咪遇過24類似25嘅問題？
(So there are fewer choices, meaning there is greater room for development in this regard. Now I think that if you tell some people who can read Chinese characters already to use these sorts of materials, they will get bored, as the elementary teaching stuff will have people saying it’s very childish, as in, “Why do I have to go back and study ‘1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10?” Then those people who know Chinese characters, as in speakers of Mandarin and Japanese, and even some speakers of Korean, they will think that it’s too simple, and then they’ll just think, “No need to use the textbook, I’ll just learn by speaking with my friends.” So I think you need both [types of material], they need to converge and be in line with each other, because if you don’t, those who already know Chinese characters will have bad pronunciation, but those who use romanization to study, they will only study the basics, up to the A1 level, and then they won’t have a better textbook. I wonder if Cameron ran into similar problems?)
Cameron: 其實我覺得因爲我之前學咗普通話，所以我就係通過普通話入嚟粵語嘅，我覺得最難嘅方面就係都會用普通話嘅詞講廣東話。就係所以我開始學廣東話嘅時候，我嘅老師就幫我學多啲嗰個，就係口語嘅廣東話。但係我覺得，如果你係一個未學過普通話嘅學生，你可能唔會有呢個問題，因爲你就會覺得，廣東話嘅詞就係廣東話嘅字，你會諗唔到呢個分別。同埋嗰個另一個就係嗰個書面語26同口語之間嘅分別。但係呢個，我覺得呢個係母語者會諗到嘅方面啦。
(Actually, I think that because I studied Mandarin before, I entered Cantonese through Mandarin, so I think the hardest part has been using Mandarin words when speaking Cantonese. When I first started studying Cantonese, my teacher helped me study more colloquial Cantonese. However, I think that if you are a student who has not studied Mandarin, you will not have this problem, as you’ll think, Cantonese words are Cantonese words, you won’t think about this differentiation. And another differentiation is the one between written language and spoken language. But I think that this is something that native speakers think about too.)
Chaakming：係，母語者27成日會講話口語同書面語唔同，噉就所以好難學。其實呢，呢個係難嘅，呢個係難嘅部分。但實際上最難嘅應該唔係呢一個哋方，因爲如果唔識普通話，如果係完全用廣東話去開始學嘅話，其實書面語嗰啲詞語就係好似一啲好罕見28嘅，即係嗰啲係 rare words 我哋唔用嘅，或者嗰啲呢，淨係新聞入面用，報紙入面用，正常時候唔用嘅。
(Yes, native speakers always talk about how written and spoken language are different, so it’s very hard to study. However, this is difficult, it’s a rather difficult aspect, though, this shouldn’t be the hardest part, because if you don’t know Mandarin, if you are entirely starting from Cantonese, written language is seldom encountered, as it’s rare words that we don’t use, or they are something used in the news, in newspapers, but not regularly used [in daily conversation].)
噉你識咗少少rare words 係唔會影響你嘅成個學嘅過程。但係如果你本身識普通話呢，噉就唔同啦，因爲嗰啲喺廣東話好少見嘅詞，可能係普通話嘅好常見，成日用嘅嘢，噉你就會好有一個誘惑29，即係呢好 tempted 係“嘩，喺普通話我可以噉講嘅喎，我可唔可以放落廣東話直接30用呢？”噉所以呢個係一個好特別嘅問題，就係因爲識咗普通話，所以有多啲困難31。但係識普通話去學廣東話呢，又有另一啲方面係容易啲嘅，所以唔係話識普通話就一定學唔好，不過會有其它特別啲嘅障礙。
(Now if you only know a few rare words, it won’t affect your overall course of study. But if you already known Mandarin, it’s different, as those words that you seldom encounter in Cantonese, they might be frequently encountered or used in Mandarin, and you will have a temptation, as in you will be tempted [to think] “Wow, in Mandarin you can say it like this, can’t I just directly stick it into Cantonese and use it?” So this is a rather specific problem, facing more difficulties due to already knowing Mandarin. But students who already know Mandarin have it easier in other aspects, so previously knowing Mandarin isn’t necessarily bad, but it has its own specific obstacles.)
Raymond: 係囉，好似你講到，通常識咗普通話嗰啲，無論係因爲佢本身母語，但係佢已經學過呢，即係佢哋唔係淨係學咗個語言咁簡單嘛，佢哋都識咗好多文化上嘅一啲知識，噉我哋都唔需要由頭32去教返佢。同埋嗰個文化語法上面呢個都係個基礎嚟嘅啦，噉所以有佢嘅優勢啦。噉另外我頭先亦都提到仲有一批33嘅學習者就係我哋其實之前嘅嘉賓有講過嘅，我哋所謂嘅heritage learners 即係佢哋喺家庭個背景，噉佢哋聽同講係有一定嘅能力嘅。噉所以佢哋好多時去學習嘅時候呢，佢哋就係根據34返佢哋喺口語，佢哋可以識講或者聽得明嗰啲嘢嘅知識呢去嚟學習嘅。噉我諗係海外嘅，好大有一大批嘅噉樣背景嘅學生啦，噉香港亦都譬如係一啲少數族裔嘅，即係佢哋接觸廣東話，亦都係透過聽同講先啦，噉呢啲呢，你又有冇啲特別嘅方法去幫助佢哋呀？
(Yes, as you said, often for those who know Mandarin, whether because it is their mother tongue or something they previously studied, is not as simple as saying that they have already studied the language, as they have also have a lot of cultural knowledge, so we don’t to go back and teach them from the very beginning. And those cultural and grammatical aspects come from a [shared] foundation, so it has its advantages. Now as I was saying earlier, one group of students has been brought up in our conversations with previous guests, so-called “heritage learners,” who due to their family background have a certain degree of listening and speaking ability. Often when they go to study [Cantonese], they use their knowledge of colloquial language that they can speak or understand to learn. I think that overseas, there are a great deal of students of this background, and Hong Kong is also a city with different ethnic minorities who encounter Cantonese through speaking and listening. What specific methods do you have for helping these sorts of students?)
Chaakming：呢一啲朋友呢，其實佢哋本身嘅廣東話嘅底35其實好好嘅。佢哋可能係表達能力唔夠好，或者係練習嘅時間唔夠。噉我哋初時整咗一個計劃呢，就叫做冚唪唥。噉呢個計劃呢初時我諗法就係，我哋想整大量嘅故事書，即係簡單嘅古仔，而呢啲古仔呢係要用 graded readers 嘅形式，即係呢，簡單嗰啲呢，就係好容易好容易嘅，係講緊係早晨呀、食咗飯未呀、我屋企有好多人呀、我鍾意去沙灘玩呀，呢一啲好簡單嘅詞語砌一個古仔出嚟。但係越上呢，個程度會越深嘅，跟住啲古仔呢嘅內容就越來越多，越來越豐富36。跟住就，我哋希望呢，錄咗好多好多呢啲古仔之後呢，噉一啲 heritage learner，因爲佢本身聽咗好多，我想佢哋聽得更加多，而聽嘅古仔呢，我想佢哋聽到嘅詞語要再闊37啲。
(I have some friends whose Cantonese fundamentals are actually pretty good, but their ability to express themselves is not good enough, or they don’t have enough time to study. So in the beginning we designed a course called Hambaanglaang. My initial thought in designing them was, I wanted to create a number of story books, as in very basic stories, and the stories use a graded reader format, where the simpler ones are incredibly easy. They talk about having breakfast, whether you have eaten, “my family has a lot of people,” “I like going to play at the beach,” stories that are put together with very basic vocabulary. But the higher [level] one goes, the deeper they get, and the stories have more and more content. getting richer and richer. And then our hope is that after recording many of these stories, heritage learners–because they’ve naturally heard a lot [of Cantonese]--I think that when they listen more, to more stories, I think that the vocabulary that they hear will be more expansive.)
因爲佢哋嘅問題係少機會用廣東話，少機會用呢，即係佢哋嘅詞語呢，就係屋企嗰啲同阿爸同阿媽講嗰啲，但係阿爸阿媽，如果冇機會同仔女傾偈，噉更加係唔會有機會講故事啦，但係故事入邊有好多好緊要嘅詞呀。一啲虛構38嘅世界嘅嘢，例如童話39故事，或者係一啲社會議題。噉對於一個喺英文圈，即係英文世界嗰度生活嘅朋友嚟講，嗰啲社會議題呀，或者係人生嘅問題呀，佢哋可能用咗英文去諗。噉如果呢啲古仔可以用廣東話講一兩個呢啲噉樣嘅，呢啲噉嘅故事出嚟，可能佢哋就會聽到廣東話個版本，噉佢哋廣東話嘅詞彙40嗰個量呢，佢地識嘅詞語呢，又會多咗好多。噉就所以我哋就用呢個方法啦，故事，故事學習，噉希望佢哋聽完嗰幾百個故事之後呢，佢哋嘅廣東話會再好啲。
(Given that there problem is that they have fewer opportunities to use Cantonese, so their vocabulary is limited to what they might use with their parents, but if the parents don’t have the opportunity to speak with their kids, then they certainly won’t have the opportunity to tell them stories, but within stories there are many important words, some things from imaginary worlds, like in fairy tales, or some social issues. When it comes to those in English-speaking circles, or friends living in the English-speaking world, those social issues or human problems, they appear in stories, perhaps if they hear a Cantonese version, then their vocabulary, the words that they know, they’ll increase greatly. We use this method of stories, studying through stories, as we hope that after listening to hundreds of stories or so, their Cantonese will get even better.)
Raymond: 嗯，噉呀我都好鍾意，同埋好支持啦，即係呢個計劃。因爲我覺得教材呢喺一定程度上面呢，即係要提供多啲一啲具體嘅內容啦，無論係故事又好，你教佢一啲實際41嘅知識都好。即係唔係淨係集中你淨係教佢發音呀，語法呀，單獨嘅詞彙呀噉様。所以喺就算加拿大啦，亦都有一個係加拿大政府去資助嘅一個叫做加拿大故事書嘅項目啦，Storybook Canada 噉樣。所以呢我覺得都係一樣嘅原理42，噉我覺得呢個係非常之值得大家呢，即係去留意同埋去支持嘅。
(I also really like and support this project, as I think that to a certain extent, teaching materials need to offer more specific content, whether its stories or teaching students something more practical, both are good. It’s not simply about focusing on their pronunciation, their grammar, or their use of individual vocabulary. So in Canada, there is also a fund for a project for making Canadian storybooks, called Storybook Canada. I think this follows the same principle, and I think that it is worth everyone’s attention and support.)
Chaakming：係呀，同埋寫故事呢，其實我哋係好想世界各哋嘅人一齊寫。因爲淨係得香港嘅故事係唔夠。噉加拿大嗰啲點算呀，美國嗰啲點算呀，英國嗰啲點算呀？噉啲哋名又唔同，平時見到嘅事物43都唔同，所以係要多啲人寫先至得嘅。
(Yes, and in terms of writing stories, we actually want people from all around the world to write them together, as the stories of Hong Kong alone are not enough. So what can we do about Canada, what can we do about America, what can we do about England? Names aren’t the same there, the things you regularly encounter aren’t the same, so it’s best if more people write.)
Cameron：係，其實我都知道，而家喺美國有啲大學嘅圖書館，佢哋都會買嗰啲細路仔44嘅書，因爲佢哋知道，佢哋嘅學生可能都係有自己嘅仔嘅，所以都可以幫佢哋就教佢哋嘅細路仔學佢哋嘅母語。但係另一個問題就係，我喺Twitter 睇下你都係學緊其它方言嘅係唔係？
(Yeah, and I am also aware that there are some university libraries in the US that will buy books for kids because they know some of their students might have children of their own, so the books can help them teach their mother tongue to their kids. But another question, I saw on Twitter that you have been studying other Chinese topolects, is that true?)
Chaakming：係呀，係呀。我自己係，我以前學過一段時間嘅閩南話，噉我係學臺灣嘅，臺灣話嚟嘅。噉同埋就我而家係學緊客家話，噉就都有計劃學圍頭話。噉所以就對我嚟講就係有多啲呢一啲唔同嘅附近嘅話，附近嘅語言嘅古仔呢，亦都幫到我自己。噉而家亦都好好彩45啦，就政府呢就有個計劃，噉就有個基金46呢就資助47緊我去整一啲客家話同埋圍頭話嘅故事書，噉個原理就同我啱啱講嘅粵語故事書係一樣嘅，就係想整啲故事書令到喺香港講客家話同圍頭話48嘅細路仔可以聽到佢哋屋企人嘅語言，噉就同 heritage learner 嗰個原理都應該係好似。噉就希望係越整越多啦。
(Yes, yes, I am. Before, for a while, I was studying Hokkien, the type from Taiwan, as in Taiwanese. Now I am studying Hakka, and I also plan to study Weitou [another member of the Cantonese language family]. So for me, having more stories from closely related languages also helps me. I am also very fortunate right now, as the government has a scheme, a fund subsidizing me to bring together some Hakka and Weitou stories. The principle behind that is the same as what I just brought up with Cantonese, as I want to put together books that will allow the children of Hakka and Weitou families in Hong Kong to hear the language of their family members, very similar to the principle behind heritage learners. I hope that the more I work on the books the more there will be.)
Cameron：但係你嘅研究會唔會影響到你學其它語言嘅方法呀？
(But does your research influence the ways that you study other languages?)
Chaakming：就噉學呢，係唔會，應該唔會受到啲研究影響嘅。但係呢，當你要同時做研究同埋學嗰陣呢，可能我就會行啲捷徑，有啲 shortcut 就係，其他人絕對唔會做嘅。但係我呢就會，我就會搵啲人以前嘅 transcript，跟住我就會自己攞，攞住啲 transcript 呢整 wordlist 呢，跟住我就將呢一個，呢一堆詞語呢，放落去自己嗰啲電腦，啲程式49嗰度呢，噉係噉記字咭50囉，其實一開始就記字咭係唔好嘅，噉但係因爲我要好快學識基本嘅嘢，所以我係會好快，係幾個月嘅時間，可能記咗兩三千個詞語，跟住先至開始做返啲正常51嘅，即係上堂呀，傾偈呀，呢一啲。
(Not really, it shouldn’t be influenced by my research. However, when you are researching and studying at the same time, you might be able to take some shortcuts that other people certainly wouldn’t take. What I’ll do is, I’ll find other people’s [conversation] transcripts, and then I will take the transcript and make a wordlist, and then I’ll take this group of words and put it in my computer, in a certain software, and make flashcards. At first I won’t be able to remember the cards well, but because I want to quickly develop a foundation, I might be able to memorize two or three thousand words within the space of a few months. After that I will go back and take formal classes, do some speaking, that sort of stuff.)
Cameron：你係咪用 Anki 呀?
(Do you use Anki?)
Chaakming：係呀係呀。我係用 Anki 呀。我諗好多學語言嘅人都聽過。就係呢，當你要學一個語言呢，好快呢你就會去到一個樽頸52嘅，嗰個樽頸就係，我好似呢學咗半年喎，學咗一年喎，點解乜嘢都講唔到嘅？買嘢我識啦，問路我識啦，頭個一兩本教科書我睇晒啦，但係我想講乜嘢就係，就係有啲topic 我完全講唔到。噉嗰個問題就係，因爲啲詞語唔夠呢，係永遠都講唔到你想講嘅嘢。噉呢個時候呢，就我係第一次發現呢，就係呢個問題係十五年前。噉嗰陣呢就知道，唔得，要用啲方法。而我發現嗰個方法呢，就係用flash card。噉當時十五年前我係學緊日文嘅，噉我就好快就搵到呢個用日文去學，用詞語去學日文嘅一個網頁。
(Yes, yes. I use Anki. I think many language learners have heard of it. When you study a language, you will often run into a bottleneck, which is that you may have studied half a year, a year maybe, but why is it that you can’t speak it? I know how to buy stuff, ask for directions, I’ve finished a textbook or two, but the things I want to talk about are topics that I can’t speak about. The problem there is that because your vocabulary isn’t large enough, you’ll never be able to talk about what you want to talk about. At that point, the first time I had this realization, was fifteen years ago. Then I knew it wouldn’t work and I needed a way of doing things. What I figured out was using flashcards. At that point fifteen years ago I was studying Japanese, so then I quickly went and found a web page for studying Japanese using words and expressions.)
噉然之後過多好短時間就發現，喔，唔使搵網頁嘅，原來係有一個叫 Anki 嘅程式，電腦又用得，電話又用得。噉只要你整好咗個詞語表，跟住撳落去呢，好快呢，佢就會每日提你呀，你今日要學 20 個新嘅詞語。然之後呢，你十日前學嘅詞語，二十日前學嘅詞語，佢會定期噉樣話俾你聽幾時要溫書53，幾時要練習54。我覺得係好有用嘅，呢一個 Anki 同埋，唔用Anki都唔緊要，我冇幫佢賣廣告55嘅。但係，唔用 Anki 你用其他記字嘅程式呢，都係好幫助到我哋，即跳到一個好大嘅步呀，即係由，用歐洲嗰個講法就係由 A2 去到 B1 或者由 B1 去到 B2 個 level。有呢啲字咭，係好有幫助。
(After a short amount of time I discovered, huh, no need to use the website, as there was a software called Anki, it could be used on a PC or phone. All I had to do was to make a vocabulary table and then press a button, and then very quickly, it reminds you every day that today you need to study 20 new vocabulary words. After that, the vocabulary I studied 10 days ago, and then the vocabulary from 20 days ago, it follows a fixed schedule in reminding you when to review, when you need to practice. I think Anki is very useful, but you also don’t have to use it, I am not helping them advertise. However, if you don’t use Anki and use other software, it will still help you a lot in making a big improvement. In terms of how they put it in Europe [using the Common European Framework of Reference], you can get from A2 ot B1 or B1 to B2. These flashcards are very helpful.)
Raymond:噉我好奇56喎，你用呢個方法學呢，即係我諗主要係幫助你嗰個理解，即係，無論係聆聽又好，睇，閱讀又好，嗰方面應該係特別有幫助啦。噉但係我又想知道喺口語嗰方面呢，你係，即係去到要學咗幾耐，或者係到咩時候，你先至係覺得自己比較有自信57噉樣可以，說話口語嗰個表達能力係啦，有啲咩可以，有啲咩方法呀？
(I’m very curious about your use of this method, as I think that it can help your comprehension, whether it is listening or reading, it should really help in those respects. But I also want to know regarding speaking, after studying for how long or at one point do you feel you have the relative self-confidence to speak and have the ability to express yourself–are there any methods for that?
Chaakming：我係一個冇乜自信嘅人嚟嘅。噉所以，所以呢，其實我學好耐呢，都係唔夠膽58講。噉點樣先至夠膽講呢？就係要搵到一兩個朋友，佢可以忍耐你嗰啲講得好差嘅話，即係咩學咩語言都好。噉有時我要上網搵老師啦，噉有時就係要搵一個兩個接受能力好高嘅朋友。噉然之後呢就係要我講得幾核突59都好呢，佢哋都唔會轉返英文或者唔會轉返廣東話，噉樣我先至會開始有返啲自信。原來我講呢隻語言呢，你聽得明㗎真係。原來唔係我講一句，你就要轉台60㗎。噉我諗係識到一兩個呢啲朋友之後呢，過到半年呢，我諗我就會開始覺得係識少少嘅呢一隻語言。
(I am someone lacking in self-confidence, so even when I study for a long time, I still won’t have the courage to speak. So how can you have enough courage? You need to find a friend or two who has the patience to hear you speak poorly, whatever language it is you’re studying. Sometimes I’ll find teachers online, and sometimes I’ll find friends with high tolerance levels. After that, even if I speak really terribly, they still won’t switch to English or Cantonese, and then I can start to get some self-confidence. It’s that I’m speaking this language and you’re really comprehending, not me speaking a sentence and you just changing languages. After getting to know one or two friends like this, after half a year, I think that I will start to think I somewhat know a language.)
Raymond：係呀我覺得搵到一個呢，即係包容61你嘅講錯誤62嘅一啲朋友又好，即係願意同你溝通嘅人啦即係，佢哋又唔會話喐啲又轉台呀，又或者你講歪63少少話聽唔明呀，我覺得要搵到噉樣嘅對象64係好重要真係。
(I think that finding a friend who can tolerate your mistakes is also good, that is, they’re willing to communicate, and won’t just bump up against something and switch languages, even if you say something a bit odd and they don’t comprehend, I think finding this sort of partner is very important.)