#8 Guest Episode: John Wakefield, Part 2 (粵語)
The second half of a two-part conversation with Professor John Wakefield, this episode focuses on his linguistic research and thoughts on how Cantonese has evolved in recent decades. Professor Wakefield also discusses his 2019 edited volume Cantonese as a Second Language: Issues, Experiences and Suggestions for Teaching and Learning.
Other resources mentioned in this episode:ViuTV YouTube Channel
Cantonese.tools
2. 睇法 tai2 faat3 (N) opinion, view
3. 課本 fo3 bun2 (N) textbook
4. 教材 gaau3 coi4 (N) teaching material
5. 查字典 caa4 zi6 din2 (VO) check/look up dictionary
6. 習得 zaap6 dak1 (V/N) to acquire / acquisition
7. 語言學家 jyu5 jin4 hok6 gaa1 (N) linguist
8. 語素 jyu5 sou3 (N) morpheme
9. 語音 jyu5 jam1 (N) (linguistic) phone / speech sound
10. 句法 geoi3 faat3 (N) syntax
11. 主語 zyu2 jyu5 (N) subject
12. 賓語 ban1 jyu5 (N) object
13. 對比 deoi3 bei2 (N/V) contrast / to contrast
14. 撈亂 lou1 lyun6 (V) to mix up
15. 表示 biu2 si6 (V/N) to show / sign
16. 強調 koeng4 diu6 (V/N) to emphasize / emphasis
17. 相似 soeng1 ci5 (ADJ) similar
18. 初初 co1 co1 (ADV) at the beginning / initially
19. 錄音帶 luk6 jam1 daai2 (N) cassette tape
20. 年紀 nin4 gei2 (N) age
21. 潮語 ciu4 jyu5 (N) slang / trendy saying
22. 消遣 siu1 hin2 (V/N) to kill time / leisure
23. 懶音 laan5 jam1 (N) “lazy” accent
24. 正音 zing3 jam1 (N) “standard” pronunciation
25. 逼人 bik1 jan4 (VO) to force people to do something
26. 自然 zi6 jin4 (ADJ/ADV/N) natural / naturally/ nature
27. 邀請 jiu1 cing2 (V/N) to invite / invitation
28. 具體 geoi6 tai2 (ADJ) concrete / specific
29. 編輯 pin1 cap1 (V/N) to edit / edit
30. 困難 kwan3 naan4 (N/ADJ) difficulty / difficult
31. 非華裔 fei1 waa4 jeoi6 (N) non-Chinese descent
32. 南亞裔 naam4 aa3 jeoi6 (N) South Asian descent
33. 建議 gin3 ji5 (N/V) suggestion / to suggest
34. 豐富 fung1 fu3 (ADJ) abundant/rich
35. 著作 zyu3 zok3 (N) written work
36. 參考 caam1 haau2 (N/V) reference / to reference
37. 專門 zyun1 mun4 (ADV) specifically
38. 推薦 teoi1 zin3 (V/N) to recommend / recommendation
39. 溫習 wan1 zaap6 (V/N) to review / review
40. 收集 sau1 zaap6 (V) to collect
41. 平板 ping4 baan2 (N) tablet
42. 混合 wan6 hap6 (V) to combine/mix
43. 裝置 zong1 zi3 (N) device
44. 技術 gei6 seot6 (N) technology
45. 轉換 zyun3 wun6 (N/V) conversion / to convert
46. 實用 sat6 jung6 (ADJ) practical
ADJ - Adjective
ADV - Adverb
N - Noun
V - Verb
VO - Verb Object
Raymond: 今集節目係我哋同莊域飛教授對話嘅第二部分。如果想聽返關於佢早期學習粵語同埋演戲經歷嘅前半部分，你可以聽返上一集嘅內容。
Cameron: This episode features the second half of our conversation with Professor John Wakefield. To hear the first half of our conversation, which focuses on his early experiences learning, and acting in Cantonese, you can check out the previous episode.
Raymond: 由你日常生活用廣東話演變到研究1粵語，你對呢個語言嘅睇法2有冇改變呢？
Cameron: So, in transitioning from Cantonese as something that's around you in daily use to Cantonese as an object of research, did you find yourself thinking about the language any differently, or approaching it differently in making that shift?
John Wakefield: 其實如果你係喺課本3學粵語, 因為冇呢啲高級嘅課本，即係唔係冇，但係，即係唔多啦，即係啲高級嘅嗰啲教材4就比較少呀, 所以呢就，學呢，我都係喺一路用一路學。噉我就會用中文問我啲朋友，“呢個係乜嘢意思呀?” 你有時查字典5都查唔到嗰個字係乜嘢意思。噉所以句法呀，乜嘢都係就噉聽返嚟就一個好自然嘅方式去習得6呢個語言嘅。噉但係我後尾做語言學家7，噉就學乜嘢係語素8，乜嘢叫詞，就研究嗰啲語音9呀同埋句法10。噉我就會知道“呀原來係噉樣呀”。同埋好多時人哋就有個誤解呀，就係以為粵語係冇語法呀，即係點講，即係好多人會噉樣講。
(Well, if you are studying Cantonese from a textbook, since there aren’t those sorts of advanced textbook--not that there aren’t any entirely, it’s just that there aren’t many, as in there are relatively few advanced teaching materials--in studying, I studied while using Cantonese. I would use Cantonese to ask my friends, “What does this mean?” Sometimes when you look something up in a dictionary, you can’t really find its meaning. In terms of syntax, anything like this where you hear something repeated back is a very natural means of language acquisition. But in the end I became a linguist, studying what morphemes are, what words are, essentially researching phonology and syntax, and then I’d know, “Ah, so that’s why it’s like this.” Many people have a misunderstanding, which is that they think Cantonese has no grammar, that...how to put it...many people say this [about Cantonese].)
但係我就會知道，呀原來係有語法嘅。其實係，即係你唔可以話“我食咗飯喺屋企“。即係好怪囉。即係你“喺屋企”就擺最尾，即係擺喺嗰個動詞主語11之後，就會好奇怪囉，尤其是如果有個賓語12囉。噉如果擺之後，擺最尾呢，即係英文就可以嘅，”I ate dinner at home”， 你 ”at home” 可以擺最尾囉。但係你 ”at home” 中文就，有啲人話佢好似一個 “verb second language”，但係 verb second 嘅意思就唔係好似德文呀，德文就係 verb-sec，即係嗰個verb係第二，粵語就係尾二。噉就會學呢啲嘢囉。即係好似有一個，我教一科啦，就叫做中英對比13呀，噉有個例子啦，就係“解決呢個問題好容易” Ok, 噉你又可以話，“呢個問題好容易解決“，又可以話“好容易解決呢個問題” 。噉就好似你撈亂14晒都 ok 喎，但係其實英文一樣係做到。個問題就係英文會表示15某啲嘢，中文就唔表示。
(But I know that it [Cantonese] ultimately does have grammar. In fact, you can’t say, “I ate food at home.” It’s very strange. It’s that if you place the “at home” at the very end--putting it after the verb and subject--it becomes quite odd, especially if you have an object. So if you put it after, at the very end, that’s okay in English--”I ate dinner at home”--as your “at home” can be placed at the very end. But as for your “at home” in Chinese, some people say it’s like a “verb second language,” but the meaning of “verb second” isn’t like in the case of German, which is “verb-sec” [in linguistic definition sense], where the verb is number two in the sentence, but Cantonese has the verb in the penultimate spot. So I would study this sort of thing. There is one class that I teach, which is called “Chinese-English Comparative Study,” and one of the examples is, “Solving this problem is easy.” Ok, so you can also say, “This problem is easy to solve,” or you can say, “It’s very easy to solve this problem.” It seems even if you totally mix them up it’s okay, yet English can do the exact same thing. The problem is that English would express something that Chinese would not.)
其實呢個唔係淨係粵語，普通話都係噉。噉你例如“解決呢個問題好容易”英文就係 “solving this problem is easy”。噉你”解決呢個問題”就冇嗰個，英文就一定要，唔可以話 “solve this problem is easy”。一定要話呢個 solving this problem 呢個 clause （子句）係做緊主語嘅。所以你就一定要嗰個動詞呢就加 “ing”。如果你唔加 “ing” 就唔合語法嘅。噉另外呢，中文你可以唔用個 copula （系動詞），即係“係”。即係話你唔需要你”解決呢個問題係好容易”。可以啦，但係呢個有一個強調16嘅意思啦。另外呢，你要加個“很”，好似 very easy 個case啦，佢唔一定係 very，佢嗰個意思。有呢啲分別啦但係其實係好相似嘅。噉如果你中文話“呢個問題好容易解決”，噉你英文一樣可以，你話 “this problem is easy to solve”。噉都可以分開 “this problem”, ”solving this problem” becomes “this problem to solve” 即係好得意做呢啲對比啦。其實好多語言有好多相同嘅地方，你睇表面上就好似好唔同， 但係其實都… 我好鍾意即係研究啲相似17嘅地方。
(In fact, it isn’t just Cantonese that’s like this but also Mandarin. So if you take for example, “solving this problem is easy,” it’s the same in English. As for if you say “solving this problem is easy,” in English you have to--you can’t say “solve this problem is easy”--you have to say “solving this problem,” as this clause becomes the subject. So you definitely need to add “ing” to the verb. If you don’t add “ing,” it won’t be grammatical. Another example is that in Chinese you can go without using a copula, as in “hai6.” That is, you don’t need to say “gaai2 kyut3 ni1 go3 man6 tai4 hai6 hou2 jung4 ji6.” You can, but here it [hai6] has an emphatic meaning. Also, if you add “han2,” it seems like “very easy,” though it doesn’t necessarily convey “very” in terms of meaning. These differentiations are actually quite similar. And if you say in Cantonese, “This problem is easy to solve,” you can say the same in English. However, you can also separate “this problem,” as in, “solving this problem” becomes “this problem to solve.” It’s very interesting doing this sort of comparison. Actually, many languages share many commonalities. If you look at them on the surface level, they seem quite different, but they both.. I really enjoy researching these aspects of similarity.)
Raymond:粵語由你最初學習到而家，喺香港已經有好大嘅變化，噉你覺得最大嘅改變係乜嘢呢？
Cameron: Cantonese in Hong Kong has changed a lot since you first started studying the language, what parts have you noticed have changed the most？
John Wakefield: 初初18學中文呢，就係，我未去做傳教士之前，佢哋就寄咗一本書同埋啲錄音帶19俾我。就叫做 Cantonese Sounds and Tones。噉 Cantonese Sounds and Tones 係60年代錄嘅。嗰陣時呢，仲有第七聲。噉粵語有七個聲調。噉有個 high falling。噉而家如果可能年紀20好大嗰啲廣州人或者仲係用呢個第七聲，但係幾乎係冇嘅喇。噉呢個就冇咗啦，但係我初初學個陣時係用呢個第七聲嘅。噉呢個就變咗啦。
(When I first started studying Cantonese, that is, before I was a missionary, they gave me a book and a cassette tape. It was called Cantonese Sounds and Tones. Cantonese Sounds and Tones was recorded in the 60s, and at that time, there was still the seventh tone, so Cantonese had seven tones--it had a high falling tone. Now maybe particularly old people from Guangzhou still use the seventh tone, but it seems to be completely gone. It disappeared, but when I first started studying I used this seventh tone. Now this has changed.)
另外... 其實冇乜喎，因爲語言呢，係變得好慢嘅。噉我就係，點解我會睇到呢樣嘢呢？就係因爲我用嗰啲教材係好耐之前就開始用啦，同埋就係我用嗰啲教材嗰陣時已經係好舊。變得最快可能係嗰啲潮語21呀，即係好似嗰陣時我話“今晚去邊度 wet （消遣22）呀”，而家就唔講啦。噉你同啲後生講，就唔知道你喺度講緊咩喇。噉我之前學好多，如果我講返呢，即係人哋會知道我係好耐之前學廣東話嘅。噉懶音23啦，之前就唔講懶音呢樣嘢囉，噉呢個係一個教育嘅問題囉。即係最近呢十幾廿年就開始就話應該係，即係講返正音24囉。但係呢個就，其實係好難逼人25哋唔跟嗰個自然26嘅改變，因為語言係，每個語言都會有改變嘅。
(Also...actually, there aren’t really [other things that changed], as language changes very slowly. Me, why would I read those sorts of things? It’s because those educational materials I used first began getting used long ago, and when I used them they were already quite old. Perhaps what changes faster is slang, as back then I would say, “Tonight where are we going to kill time?” but not anymore. If you say it to younger folks, they won’t know what the heck you’re talking about. In the past I studied a lot of slang, and if I used it again, people would know I studied Cantonese a long time ago. As for the “lazy accent,” that didn’t come up before, but it’s an education issue. It’s only been in recent decades when people seem to have started bringing up “standard” pronunciation. Yet it’s hard to force people not to follow along with a very natural shift, as language, every language will change.)
Raymond：噉我哋呢個節目呢，噉我哋都計劃每一集呢，到最後呢，我哋都邀請27嘉賓，加上我哋自己呢，都會分享呢，多最少一個，即係一啲比較具體28嘅，無論係學廣東話或者係教廣東話比較有用嘅資源。其實我都想請阿John呢，你不如你可唔可以講多兩句就係呢，你喺啱啱一兩年前左右呢，你都編輯29咗一本，即係講關於廣東話學習嘅一個，一啲嘅學術界嘅人士分享佢哋嘅經驗啦，嗰本書，你想唔想講少少呀？
(Well, on this program, we plan at the end of every episode--our invited guests as well as ourselves--to share at least one relatively concrete resource that can help in the study or teaching of Cantonese. In fact, I’d also like to ask John, why don’t you speak a little about the book you edited that came out a couple years ago, the one about studying Cantonese where people from academia share their experiences? Do you want to say something about that book?)
John Wakefield: 係啦，我做編輯啦，唔係我寫出嚟啦，即係我寫咗一個 Chapter（章），另外合寫另外一個 chapter 啦。其他嗰啲全部都係其他學者幫我寫嘅。Cantonese as a Second Language （粵語為第二語言）就係本書嘅 title（書名），噉 subtitle 就係 Issues, Experiences and Suggestions for Teaching and Learning。噉個 issue（議題）就係講呢個粵語嘅困難30啦，同埋點樣去對付嗰啲困難嘅。噉嗰 part（部份）呢，Raymond 都寫咗一個 chapter 嘅。另外一 part 呢就係講啲語言學家，自己又係語言學家，又係講 Cantonese as a second language。噉佢哋就講佢哋嘅經歷，同埋講啲，即係俾啲意見點樣學囉。跟住第三個 section 就係，即係有啲研究呀。有啲係講非華裔31學生喺香港學粵語嘅，多數係嗰啲南亞裔32嘅學生。所以嗰本書裡面呢，都有好多啲意見呀，建議33，點樣去學講粵語嘅，所以如果你係一個老師，或者係一個學生，佢裡邊都，啲內容都好豐富34嘅。
(Sure, I was the editor, I didn’t write the whole thing, I just wrote a chapter and collaborated on another. In fact, other academics helped me by writing the other chapters. Cantonese as a Second Language is the book’s title, and the subtitle is, Issues, Experiences and Suggestions for Teaching and Learning. The “issue” has to do with the difficulties of learning Cantonese and how to deal with them. In that part, Raymond also wrote a chapter. Another part is about linguists--I am a linguist--as well as Cantonese as a second language. The linguists talk about their experiences and also give their views on how to study. Then the third section includes some research. Some talk about non-heritage speakers studying Cantonese in Hong Kong, most being students from South Asia. So in that book, there are a lot of viewpoints, lots of suggestions on how to study Cantonese, so if you are a teacher or a student, there’s abundant content in there.)
Raymond：嗯，我都同意，呢個係一本幾重要嘅著作35嚟嘅。
(I agree, this book is a very important work.)
John Wakefield：噉同埋嗰個有一個 Introdutory Chapter 係 The Cantonese Language, 就係我同 Robert Bauer 教授寫嘅，噉呢個就都係俾啲老師做參考36嘅。其實語言學家都會，如果佢哋唔係專門37研究粵語，佢哋攞來參考可能都會學到啲嘢。
(Also, it has an introduction chapter called “The Cantonese Language,” which I co-wrote with Professor Robert Bauer, it’s referenced a lot by teachers. In fact linguists, particularly if they don’t specialize in researching Cantonese, if they consult it they will learn some things.)
Raymond：係呀，我都推薦38，因爲我都我自己都有睇返嗰個部分，好似幫自己溫習39啦，或者一啲好基本重要嘅粵語知識啦。噉就係莊域飛教授同埋香港大學嘅榮譽教授包睿舜教授一齊寫，大家可以留意吓。好，Cameron。
(Yup, I also recommend it, as I also read over that section, it’s really good for reviewing, or getting a basic sense of fundamental knowledge about Cantonese. So that’s by Professor John Wakefield and Professor Robert Bauer, everyone can keep an eye out for that. Ok, Cameron.)
Cameron: 其實呢，我嘅好簡單, 就係一個 YouTube channel 就係 ViuTV World。呢個係ViuTV 喺外國嘅 YouTube channel。所以如果你唔住喺香港，其實你仲可以睇到啲香港嘅節目。如果你住喺香港嘅話，當然可以用 ViuTV 嘅網站或者 app （程式）， 但係其他人就可以用呢個 channel （頻道），因爲而家好多人睇緊 ViuTV，所以可以幫你學啲俗語。
(Well, mine is quite simple, it’s a YouTube channel, ViuTV World. It’s ViuTV’s YouTUbe channel abroad. So if you don’t live in Hong Kong, you can still watch Hong Kong TV programs. If you do live in Hong Kong, you can of course use the ViuTV website or app, but other people can use this channel, as many people are watching ViuTV these days, so it can help you study some slang.)
Raymond：我知道 Cameron 你都有追啦，ViuTV 一啲劇同埋節目啦。噉我自己就係我都成日睇 Viu TV 啲節目啦。噉我又好快呢就同大家講一個網站啦，噉啱啱我哋今日都講咗好多既係學習粵語嘅工具啦，無論係阿 John，阿 Cameron 佢哋都有用啦，噉我就發現有一個相對應該比較新嘅網站，佢就有收集40呢，你點樣可以喺電腦啦，喺你嘅電話啦，或者係你嘅平板41電腦呀，手提電腦上面呢，係可以將你嘅聲音啦，同埋打字啦，噉同埋啲拼音, 呢係點樣去混合42去使用嘅。噉我先講咗個網站啦，就喺 Cantonese.tools, t-o-o-l-s。噉係 www.cantonese.tools。
(I know that Cameron, you also follow some programs on ViuTV. I frequently watch ViuTV as well. I’ll also quickly tell everyone about a website, as we just spoke a lot today about tools for studying Cantonese, whether from John or Cameron, they’re all useful. I found a relatively new website that compiles methods on your computer, smartphone, or tablet for using your voice, typing, or romanization [to input Cantonese]. Let me first say the website, it’s Cantonese.tools )
噉你去到嗰個網站呢，佢就會教你喺唔同嘅電話啦、或者電腦呀、或者唔同嘅平台呢你點樣去裝呢啲嘅裝置43或者係技術44。例如呢你可以學點樣呢用廣東話，你講廣東話，佢可以自動幫你打啲字出嚟啦；或者相反嘅，你見到啲中文字呢，你點樣可以令到佢幫你發廣東話嘅發音，或者甚至將佢轉做我哋今日講嘅拼音，無論係粵拼又好，耶魯又好。即係呢啲嘅轉換45呢，我發覺對於我哋學習者係一個好重要嘅資源。因爲你可能識一個字，你可能淨係識講，你唔知道個字，或者倒返轉，你見到個字，你又想知道佢點樣發音啦，噉我覺得呢種轉換好緊要嘅。噉所以大家可以留意一下呢個網站，我就覺得好實用46囉。
(If you go to that website, it will teach you how to configure your device, whether telephone, computer, or tablet. For instance, you can learn how to use Cantonese speaking to automatically help you type words. On the other hand, if you see Chinese characters, it can help you figure out their Cantonese pronunciation, or convert them into the romanization systems we use today, whether Jyutping or Yale. I find this romanization converter to be a very helpful resource for my students, as you might know one character, or you only know how to say something but don’t know what the character is, or you might see a character and want to know how it is pronounced. I think this sort of converter is very important. So everyone should look out for this website, I think it’s very practical.)
好，我哋今日都分享咗好多，噉我就喺度啦，就再一次啦，非常之感謝，都好開心，有莊教授同我哋去分享，做咁耐嘅分享。正如你所講，你仍然有好多好重要嘅研究呀，噉我哋都歡迎你隨時返嚟同我哋傾偈，同我哋分享。
(Well, today we shared a lot. At this point I will again say thank you, we are both delighted to have had John Wakefield share so much with us today. As you said, you still have a lot of important research, so we welcome you to come back anytime to chat and share with us.)
John Wakefield: 好，多謝多謝，都好多謝你哋請我哋今日同你哋傾吓偈。
(Of course, thank you, thank you, thank you very much for inviting me today to speak with you.)
Raymond：好，多謝曬。
(Great, thank you very much.)